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PCS Not Working?

41K views 56 replies 23 participants last post by  dante1 
#1 ·
I just got my new 2016 RAV4 a few weeks ago. It has the PCS option, but I have never seen it work. We traded in a Buick Enclave that had something like it and it went off any time I was closing in on another car. In the past few days, I have been very close to another car, and the RAV4 did nothing. Once, another car cut right in front of me, and again no alarms. Had to slam on the brakes. I took it to the dealer and they ran tests on it and said that all checked out.I have tried all three distance settings and same result. Speed between 10-60MPH. Any thoughts?

Gary
 
#3 ·
Page 243 of the PDF Hybrid manual states that PCS may not be available depending on region, there being Region A, B and C, whatever they mean by region.




Operational conditions


Availability of the pedestrian detection function and pre-collision braking function depend on the region in which the vehicle was sold.



Regions Function availability


Region A The pedestrian detection function and pre-collision braking function are available

Region B The pedestrian detection function is not available and the pre-collision braking function is available

Region C The pedestrian detection function and pre-collision braking function are not available
 
#5 ·
Try your radar cruise control, if your car can maintains the set distance (three settings), then the front camera (maybe including sensors) are working. The car auto accelerates and brakes too.

I don't want to test the PCS out though as that could mean me crashing into the car in front of me.

What does the dealer mean when it checked out, that they had put a tick mark on their checklist or that they simulated crashing your car and found PCS to work at all three sensitivities?
 
#6 ·
I did ask the dealer about the 3 regions and they had no idea. I asked if this car was set to region 3, and got blank looks. As for the Dynamic cruise control, that seams to work just fine: slowing down as I approach a car, and speeds up as the distance increases. All I know is that they had the car for a whole day and said that they had to setup and area to test and calibrate the car, and all passed. But, again I have never seen the PCS work even after they tested it. I am not going to see if it works by ramming into the car in front of me.
 
#10 ·
gsewell's concern is spot on. The Toyota "http://www.toyota.com/safety-sense/" video shows the PCS working with a warning at 11 car lengths and braking at 7 in an urban setting. It is no where near correct. I've been unable to get a warning at any speed (freeway or in town) at more than 1.5 car lengths on any sensitivity setting, and that was with dangerous difficulty. Useless safety system. My Toyota dealer "checked" the PCS and said it was working correctly but refused to demonstrate this to me, saying too dangerous??? Some PCS! Some 2015 models of Toyotas that first used the radar with the PCS were braking on steel safety plates in the road. Toyota solution is to disable system. I have called Toyota Care when dealer would not address issue. They said they'd have a technician check it. No such thing happened. Dealer SM called after Toyota called the dealer and said system my PCS was working as should without looking at car. Toyota refused to provide even crude design data for when PSC was to work - ranges, speeds, closing. Unbelievable run around. Only data found was that it did not work at less than 7mph. Daughter's Honda warns at 5 car lengths at freeway speed. Suggest others who are unhappy as I am with this inadequate PCS write to: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/. If enough people do, maybe Toyota will address the problem. Photo is from their video. Dream on.
 

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#13 ·
Thanks

gsewell's concern is spot on. The Toyota "http://www.toyota.com/safety-sense/" video shows the PCS working with a warning at 11 car lengths and braking at 7 in an urban setting. It is no where near correct. I've been unable to get a warning at any speed (freeway or in town) at more than 1.5 car lengths on any sensitivity setting, and that was with dangerous difficulty. Useless safety system. My Toyota dealer "checked" the PCS and said it was working correctly but refused to demonstrate this to me, saying too dangerous??? Some PCS! Some 2015 models of Toyotas that first used the radar with the PCS were braking on steel safety plates in the road. Toyota solution is to disable system. I have called Toyota Care when dealer would not address issue. They said they'd have a technician check it. No such thing happened. Dealer SM called after Toyota called the dealer and said system my PCS was working as should without looking at car. Toyota refused to provide even crude design data for when PSC was to work - ranges, speeds, closing. Unbelievable run around. Only data found was that it did not work at less than 7mph. Daughter's Honda warns at 5 car lengths at freeway speed. Suggest others who are unhappy as I am with this inadequate PCS write to: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/. If enough people do, maybe Toyota will address the problem. Photo is from their video. Dream on.
Thanks for doing the leg work on this. I filed the form. My 2016 Limited Hybrid has no audible alarm signaling that it is too close to another vehicle at any speed or sensitivity setting. I did not think too much about it even though my Honda does give a warning , until one person on this thread said that if he did not slam on the brakes there would have been a collision. Also, I have tried to find out what the Regions are that are mentioned in the manuals, but the Toyota dealer does not know either.
 
#11 ·
Thanks for the reply RAV4_driver. I agree that the PCS system does not work as advertised. Maybe there is a lawyer on the forum that can look at a class action law suit for false advertising, and selling us a product that does not work. I want my money back for this product!
 
#12 ·
Interesting. We too have our PCS set to the least sensitive and there is no sign of it working at all. I will have to try the most sensitive setting next month once we come back from vacation.

This is stupid crazy because having advertised PCS / TSS is one of the major selling points why we went for a RAV4 Hybrid Limited with the technology package. I just sent Toyota Canada an email though I'm sure it will land on unknowledgeable customer service personnel who will write just about anything.


I'm surprised Toyota would do such a stunt since there was already a class action suit filed by Prius owners:
http://www.hybridcars.com/national-class-action-filed-for-prius-pre-collision-system/


There's this review on Edmunds that lend support to the PCS not working:
http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/rav4/2016/consumer-reviews/review-836772822467878912/
 
#14 ·
Before you jump to conclusion, you need to know that the PCS takes into account TWO variables if a car gets in front of you (cuts you off) - the distance to the other car and the speed of the other car.

If the car that cuts you off is moving with the same speed or slower than you, it will auto-brake / slow you down. But if the car that cuts you of is moving faster than your car, the PCS will do nothing because it already knows that the distance between your car and the car in front of you will be increasing. Even if the distance is very small, but the difference is speed is enough there is no need to slow down.

The system takes only a fraction of second to calculate both the distance and the speed of the other car, much faster than a human driver could react.

Some older (more primitive) PCS systems use only the distance to the car in front of you. So if a faster car cuts you off, they will first slow you down and then accelerate again. Toyota system is more advanced and considers both the distance and the speed of the other car to make its decision.

Toyota TSS-P is one of the most advanced systems out there, a full generation ahead of anything offered by GM or Honda.

My wife's RAV TSS-P works flawlessly (if you understand how it works).
 
#16 ·
If you do nothing, the RAV will auto-brake and stop with about 1 ft separation between both cars (physics allowing, i.e. if there is enough traction between the tires and the road surface).

If the driver touches the brake pedal once auto-brake has begun, the driver takes over control, and auto-brake will disengage.

It has happened to us once when a car in front of us hit the brakes at a traffic light. The RAV immediately engaged auto-brake until the moment I put my foot on the brake pedal. Then I stopped the car with plenty of distance to spare. Auto-brake started well before I was even able to realize that the car ahead of us was stopping. Bear in mind that average human reaction time is 0.5 sec, while TSS-P reaction time is is less than 1/10 sec. It actually takes about 0.2 sec for your brain to process an image. If a traffic light changes to red, your brain won't realize it until 2/10 seconds later. TSS-P will act before you can even see the brake lights of the car ahead of you.

Depending on the circumstances, if a car cuts you off, TSS-P will do three different things:

- If the car ahead is moving faster than you (by at least 3 mph), TSS-P will do nothing and let the distance increase gradually.

- If the car is moving with about the same speed as you (between 0 and 3 mph faster), and the distance is less than 1 sec reaction time, TSS-P will decelerate but not engage auto-brake. It will let your speed to bleed slowly until the distance between the cars increases to about 1 sec, and then accelerate to maintain this distance.

- If the car that cuts you off is going slower than you, TSS-P will slam on the brakes to quickly increase the distance between the cars.

Now, remember that the purpose of TSS-P is not to avoid a collision but to make it survivable. In perfect conditions, it will stop your car before you hit the car in front. But the ultimate goal of TSS-P is to save lives, not bumpers. TSS-P does not release the driver from his/her responsibility of maintaining a safe distance.
 
#21 ·
A few more testimonials besides Katekebo's and many of us will feel relieved and not have to stunt drive. Must likely need something cardboard-y at least two feet across and 4 feet in height because of this as Toyota will not want the cars to auto-brake when there really no risk of an accident, as that could lead to the car behind us rear ending our vehicle.

Toyota Recalls Cars That Suddenly Brake On Their Own | CarComplaints.com
The automaker says the pre-collision system can interpret a steel joint or plate as an object in the road. The steel object will activate the collision avoidance system and identify the steel as a car driving in front of the Toyota or Lexus vehicle.



Toyota Canada has yet to get back on me on my question where PCS is functioning when I have it set to ON.



Here's the PCS description from Toyota Canada
http://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/comp...d-toyota-will-make-automated-braking-standard

Pre-collision System (PCS) – Vehicle Detection

PCS uses a camera and laser beam to detect the vehicle ahead. When the system determines there is a possibility of collision, it prompts the driver to take evasive action and brake by using an audio and visual alert. These alerts operate when the vehicle’s speed is between approximately 10 to 140 km/hour. If the driver notices the hazard and brakes, the system may provide additional braking force using Brake Assist *3. If the driver does not brake in a set time, and the system determines that the possibility of a frontal collision with another vehicle is extremely high, the system may automatically apply the brakes, reducing speed by approximately 30 km/hour*1 in order to help the driver reduce the impact and in certain cases avoid the collision. The operational range of PCS covers speeds at which at least 80 percent of rear-end collisions occur (i.e. relative speeds of between approximately 10 – 80 km/hour).

*1 Results achieved during testing using a vehicle travelling at approximately 30 km/hour and a stationary vehicle / pedestrian; system operation depends on driving environment (including road and weather) and vehicle circumstances.

*3 Brake Assist is designed to help the driver take full advantage of the benefits of ABS. It is not a substitute for safe driving practices. Braking effectiveness also depends on proper brake-system maintenance, tire and road conditions.
 
#22 ·
I do not know what motivation propels katekebo and others who dis these concerns about PCS, but they seem to be focusing on braking (or other arcane facts). If you read my post, you can see it talks about closing speed and separation; there is also the issue of the "target" projected profile, both visual and radar. Toyota at all levels refuses to address the design or typical values for these things. Moreover, all this distraction about computer speed is irrelevant. This focusing on braking totally misses the point. (Toyota, in their communications with me also focused on braking though I never mentioned it in my complaint about the warning not working.) My (and others) complaint is about the WARNING to the driver not working in any useful way, not the braking. The Toyota video shows the driver getting sufficient warning that with their (sluggish) human reaction time they will most likely be able to take corrective (braking) action in time, and that the PCS braking only occurs if they do nothing. True, Toyota makes no claim that this system is idiot-proof. That is beside the point. The point is, and I am sure that McCuneWright, LLP would leap on it, is that the 2016 Toyota PCS does not work as a warning system as advertised, not even close. This creates a dangerous expectation. Like others, I bought the PCS system for this warning system which would function as advertised. It does not.
 
#24 ·
A couple of days ago, I was cut off while driving my 2016 Limited Hybrid. I saw the car coming, so my foot was on the way to the brake pedal when the car gave a warning beep. The beep occurred just as the car got in front of me. When I actually hit the brakes they were boosted a lot more than usual. I assume this was the PCS system in action.
 
#23 ·
"Because I have seen it work in my wife's car, duh.

You are confusing two systems" DUH, what?? I am not confusing the two systems. All I was pointing out by referencing the PCS is that I can be confident that it is working, because there is a sound warning. However, with the other piece there is no sound, which would give me immense comfort (and maybe faith) that it is really working. The only real faith I have is that there is a God. Everything else I prefer facts.
 
#26 ·
Guys, thanks for all of the comments on this topic. All I can say is that in the past I have owned SUV's from Mercedes and Buick that had similar systems that gave warnings when I was approaching another car. I have never had the RAV4 give any warnings. If I have to do a physics problem calculation on:

My Car speed
Other car speed
Delta closing speed
Mass of cars
Time of day
Weather conditions
How many cups of coffee I had before I got in RAV4
What I had for breakfast

I will just turn it off because I dont want to think that the PCS is looking out for me and my wife.

It is hard to beleive that the Buick had a better system than the RAV4.

Gary
 
#32 ·
I also had some doubts about the PCS as I never got any warnings. Just this morning I was driving quite quickly in a traffic jam and when car in front of me stopped abruptly, I got an acoustic signal and a red box with BREAK warning on the dashboard. I stopped the car before the PCS could intervene, but at least it started to do something. I believe the reason why it warned me today and not before was, that I drove much quicker than usually (about 30 km/h, which is about 20 mph). It seems like the PCS is not activated at low speeds.
 
#33 ·
#34 ·
I bought 2017 RAV4 Limited 5 days ago. Pre-collision does not work at all! I did two tests. The first test I put 3 trash cans. The vehicle drove 10-20 mph, and hit the trash cans, no warning ! no brake. The 2nd test I used my another car, drove 10-20 mph, the pre-collision had no warning, I had to brake hard to void hitting front car. I'll send it to dealer to check it out.
 
#35 ·
TSS-P FAIL!

2018 LE AWD
PCS was ON and Sensitivity was at Maximum.
Nighttime conditions. Pavement was clean, dry asphalt.

I was approaching an intersection at ~30mph and noticed (to late) the stopped car at the green traffic light. I applied my brakes for the emergency stop. Throughout the entire incident, there was NEVER any warning from the TSS-P or any additional or pre-collision braking by the car.

One of the reasons we got this car for my wife for these safety systems. VERY DISAPPOINTED!
 

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#36 ·
2018 LE AWD

PCS was ON and Sensitivity was at Maximum.

Nighttime conditions. Pavement was clean, dry asphalt.



I was approaching an intersection at ~30mph and noticed (to late) the stopped car at the green traffic light. I applied my brakes for the emergency stop. Throughout the entire incident, there was NEVER any warning from the TSS-P or any additional or pre-collision braking by the car.



One of the reasons we got this car for my wife for these safety systems. VERY DISAPPOINTED!


Sorry for your accident. I got an alert when a vehicle changed lane and showed before me. It helped to prevent the accident as i did not notice and was accelerating. However, I think that the system is not perfect at all, but will get activated when unexpected things happens. It seems to me that Toyota more tried not to give false positive signals which actually will bother riders.

In your case I think your car speed was decreasing same as the car before you and the other car probably stopped slowly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#37 ·
I own a 2018 SE and also have double about the PCS. Couple times I deliberately came close to the car in front but end up have to hit the brake to avoid collision. The system showed no sign of activation.
Wondered if my speed was not high enough for the PCS system to kick in.
How can you test the PCS safely?
 
#38 ·
I own a 2018 SE and also have double about the PCS. Couple times I deliberately came close to the car in front but end up have to hit the brake to avoid collision. The system showed no sign of activation.
Wondered if my speed was not high enough for the PCS system to kick in.
How can you test the PCS safely?

Plastic trash can as one tried few posts above? If it needs 'metal' for the radar reflection you can tape aluminum foil on the can's front. Reading the thread I have my doubts it will work but at least it will be more scientific than sales talk we've heard so far. I think Toyota should specify expected reaction of the system clearly so we don't need to conduct such experiments ourselves or worse try to rely on it and find out hard way it was out of its promised range.
 
#42 ·
In the pretty short period of time (3500 mi) that I've had my 2018 RAV4 I've had the PCS (which is at the default medium sensitivity setting) beep and light up the MID in all red or orange and display "BRAKE!" about 6-7 times. None of these were even remotely close to collisions, and I never felt the system add any braking power. Although if I had been in any danger of a collision I feel the system was aware and would have assisted. Mostly these incidents were when the car in front of me was slowing and turning right and I was coasting behind them to continue straight.
 
#43 ·
Last week, my wife came home one evening, complain that "the car beeping, lit up MID screen and display "Brake". I asked her if she came closed to any car, she said "not that closed". So I guess, the PCS system does work. Only thing is, I can not get it activate when I drive the car. Weird.
 
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