Do I Really Need These or Am I Being Scammed Again? - Page 3 - Toyota RAV4 Forums
4.4 Mechanical Intakes, Exhaust, Tune-ups, 4x4 system, Suspension, Brakes, etc.

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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-31-2016, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Grand Total View Post
I think this is incorrect advice. DOT 3 brake fluid definitely does absorb water, otherwise why would the DOT 3 certification include tests for both wet and dry boiling points? See paragraph S5.1.2 of this document (page 328).
Agreed. The only fluid that does not absorb moisture is DOT 5. Regular fluid is designed to absorb moisture so the moisture does not separate and become trapped in the caliper. Under heavy braking, this can cause the moisture to turn to a vapor and your pedal will drop.

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Originally Posted by ashchuckton
The moisture moves to the lowest parts of the brake system causing the pistons & cylinders in the brake calipers to corrode. Not a cheap fix when it happens.
Not true. The moisture is absorbed and the whole system can corrode. The calipers take the brunt of it due to their location and the fact they continuously get hot/cold under braking pressure.
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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-31-2016, 02:20 PM
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I agree with you. Yes moisture will be in the entire brake system. It has been my experience that calipers suffer from that moisture the most due to corrosion. I've never seen a corroded master cylinder, but I'm sure it happens. Brake lines corrode from the outside not the inside. Moisture contaminated brake fluid boils at a lower temperature. It is sure not fun when that happens.

Any way you slice it brake fluid needs to be changed every 2 years.
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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 08:15 PM
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It has been my experience that calipers suffer from that moisture the most due to corrosion.
In my experience most people spend money on repairs in completely different areas of the vehicle. Like seals failing, things with bearings, electric motors and other electronics, plastic parts degrading.

Say you take a 10yr/100K mile time period. Sure, you can change your coolant, your ATF, your brake fluid, your differential(s) fluid. How much would it cost to do all of that regularly (not DIY) for the average person? At least $1500-2000.

So if you follow that schedule, there is a 100% chance of spending $1500-2000. For the same time period, what is the chance that you would incur $1500-2000 repairs directly related to not doing any of those fluid changes? In my experience, that chance is very low.

This type of philosophy is very common in medicine, where people don't get tested for everything out there. The cost of it far outweighs the benefits. But if someone wants to have every test done to them, they are more than welcome.


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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 01:04 AM
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You are free to do or not due as you choose. Is this a great country or what.
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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 08:40 AM
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In my experience most people spend money on repairs in completely different areas of the vehicle. Like seals failing, things with bearings, electric motors and other electronics, plastic parts degrading.

Say you take a 10yr/100K mile time period. Sure, you can change your coolant, your ATF, your brake fluid, your differential(s) fluid. How much would it cost to do all of that regularly (not DIY) for the average person? At least $1500-2000.

So if you follow that schedule, there is a 100% chance of spending $1500-2000. For the same time period, what is the chance that you would incur $1500-2000 repairs directly related to not doing any of those fluid changes? In my experience, that chance is very low.

This type of philosophy is very common in medicine, where people don't get tested for everything out there. The cost of it far outweighs the benefits. But if someone wants to have every test done to them, they are more than welcome.
True. This is how most foreign car dealerships make their money. I have had numerous Toyota's and never did a single thing on their maintenance schedule except change the oil every 10k. I changed brake fluid when I put on new brakes, but that was it. Changing the fluid made no difference on life of the brakes at all.

My old RAV4 now has over 200k. I checked the anti-freeze and it is still good. It has never been changed. In many cases, the more you mess with it, the more the cars SEEM to break!
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by joyridin' View Post
True. This is how most foreign car dealerships make their money. I have had numerous Toyota's and never did a single thing on their maintenance schedule except change the oil every 10k.
Definitely agree with you and BobV especially with Toyota and Honda. When I bought my first (of two lifetime) new Hondas in 1978 they gave me the official Honda maintenance book for work every 5,000 miles. And the dealer's list every 3,000 miles! If you followed the combination you'd be handing them $$$ every 1,000 to 2,000 miles.

But we need those who think they need to religiously follow the "official" schedule because that's what keeps the dealers in business. Long ago dealers' main profits moved from the new car showroom to the service department. Throw in high-profit used car sales and that's how they are staying open.

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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 11:16 AM
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In many cases, the more you mess with it, the more the cars SEEM to break!
Maybe all those old people that are deathly afraid of going to the hospital are onto something.


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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Dyno View Post
Definitely agree with you and BobV especially with Toyota and Honda. When I bought my first (of two lifetime) new Hondas in 1978 they gave me the official Honda maintenance book for work every 5,000 miles. And the dealer's list every 3,000 miles! If you followed the combination you'd be handing them $$$ every 1,000 to 2,000 miles.

But we need those who think they need to religiously follow the "official" schedule because that's what keeps the dealers in business. Long ago dealers' main profits moved from the new car showroom to the service department. Throw in high-profit used car sales and that's how they are staying open.
I agree with some things you say, like over-priced dealer services. I haven't been to a dealer after my first year of RAV ownership and witnessed shoddy and overpriced work.

Luckily, the RAV is easy to change out fluids yourself--THANKS to this forum!--so it is a miniscule amount of money. I feel all fluids break down over time, and it is chump change to swap them out. Otherwise, I feel like I'm buying into "lifetime fluid" BS from Toyota who has no interest in seeing the car last more than 12 years or so. It's a 'throwaway' and on to the next new car. I think I can double the life of car with some fluid changes. That's just me. And like I said, quite inexpensive if you DIY.

Question for Dr Dyno specifically regarding brake fluid: Do you also not ever change brake fluid on your motorcycles, and advise others you work on to do the same?

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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 03:53 PM
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Question for Dr Dyno specifically regarding brake fluid: Do you also not ever change brake fluid on your motorcycles, and advise others you work on to do the same?
I've never changed brake fluid on any vehicle unless it was involved with bleeding the brakes after a repair. I don't see any path for water to get in if brake fluid can't get out.

I only dynotune motorcycles not repair them.
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:14 PM
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I've never changed brake fluid on any vehicle unless it was involved with bleeding the brakes after a repair. I don't see any path for water to get in if brake fluid can't get out...
Okay, does brake pad replacement count as a repair? I'm guessing not, so what's an example of a repair requiring bleeding. And by bleeding, does that involve replacing all the fluid in the line, or just enough to get air out of the system?

As for water being absorbed, I'm not expert (obvious by my questions, lol) but I've heard it can be absorbed slowly through the brake lines, and perhaps by occasions of extreme heat, boiling down by the calipers.

I guess I'm old school on this, have always considered brake fluid requiring replacement. Odd though that Toyota USA doesn't say a word about it. (Though Toyota Canada does.)

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