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2015 Honda CR-V only comes with CVT. Can RAV4 be far behind?

12K views 32 replies 15 participants last post by  Dr. Dyno 
#1 ·
It looks like the 2015 Honda CR-V in North America, launching tomorrow, will only be coming with a Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT) (See articles here and here)

Given Toyota's desperation to clone the CR-V, and that the 2015 CR-V will now best the 4.4 RAV4 in fuel economy by about 3 Almighty-MPG (City and Hwy), can it really be long before the 4.4 only comes with a performance-sapping CVT here as well?

Given that Toyota already has a CVT for the 4.4 in other countries, I can't imagine it would take much to put it in use here. Give them another year...

Ugggh! Sad.

On the plus side, it would make our V6s that much better by comparison.

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#2 ·
Rav4 already comes with a CVT in other markets such as Europe. Since Toyota already has this type of transmission available and they opted not to use it in north America then most likely it will not be coming here anyone soon.
 
#3 ·
Obviously we can each only speculate, and only time will tell, but I really, really struggle to believe Toyota won't do whatever is necessary to keep up with Honda, especially in the MPG department.

I could see Toyota waiting 1-2 years (at most) to see what happens to Honda sales now that the new powertrain is available, but I think it more likely than not that the day will come not terribly far down the road when the RAV4 is only available in North America with a CVT.

But other things could happen for the RAV4 (diesel, turbo, direct injection, reduced weight, hybrid [unlikely! $$$] who knows?) which may change the balance for Toyota, or at least even things up.

Still, I'd bet on the CVT being part of that equation, sooner rather than later, in significant part because they already have it [low development and production costs], plus a CVT is all you can get for the current Nissan Rogue and Forester (other than a manual on the low-end Forester) and now the CR-V. [Maybe others I can't remember?] It's clearly becoming the norm.

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#4 ·
The CVT will come eventually and that's for sure however when it will arrive is the main question.
 
#5 ·
who cares.....i would never buy a 4.4 due to the total lack of balls....now if they dropped a turbo on it i could be persuaded.....and of the cvt transmissions i have driven i didnt mind them.......lets face it these small suvs were designed for soccer moms and i dont fault toyota one bit for going after their share of the pie......
 
#6 ·
About CVTs for the RAV4, Toyota isn't noted for making major changes in the midst of the production of a version so probably the CVT won't appear in the 4.4's, but may well show up when the 4.5 arrives.
 
#10 ·
The CVTs have improved. I recently drove a rental Nissan Altima 4 cyl in Denver and it performed OK, still not a great feel but the gas mileage was incredible in the mountains. I think a CVT in a V6 RAV4 would be a great performer and get good fuel economy but they need a lot of horsepower so you don't notice the CVT "slippy" feeling.
 
#11 ·
My main beef with CVTs is that they're marketed as "completely smooth...you never feel the shifting because there is no shifting," which is true and which is a nice thing, but in reality it seems one of their REAL main purposes is to inhibit acceleration in order to reduce fuel consumption and increase The Almighty MPGs.

At least that's what my reading has indicated in the past.

I think of them as basically an acceleration governor, at least from a dead stop. Essentially, another form of nanny, but one you can't turn off.

It's not exactly what everyone needs when you're trying to merge with freeway traffic...

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#12 ·
I've always felt that CVT's were fragile, light-duty transmissions. You can't tow with them, and they only seem to put them on lightweight, smaller vehicles. I remember decades ago when GM put the little Chevette transmission in their full size cars. That didn't work out very well.
 
#13 ·
My main beef with CVTs is that they're marketed as "completely smooth...you never feel the shifting because there is no shifting," which is true and which is a nice thing, but in reality it seems one of their REAL main purposes is to inhibit acceleration in order to reduce fuel consumption and increase The Almighty MPGs.

At least that's what my reading has indicated in the past.

I think of them as basically an acceleration governor, at least from a dead stop. Essentially, another form of nanny, but one you can't turn off.

It's not exactly what everyone needs when you're trying to merge with freeway traffic...

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Have you ever driven anything with a cvt?.....I was gonna buy a murano before I bought my rav and drove a few......no issues at all with acceleration.....the cvt is tame under casual driving but when you put your foot in it that changes......if your driving and floor it that thing drops to a pre set gear ratio and takes off......
 
#14 ·
I have not, as I have not needed to go vehicle shopping recently (who would, when you already have the best vehicle ever made? :thumbs_up: )

But I have read(/watched) endless reviews of vehicles, including many with CVTs over the past several years, and I think every (professional) automotive reviewer I've read dislikes them. I've never once read/watched a single reviewer say "Wow, what a great experience I had driving that CVT! So connected and responsive!"

Most of them complain about performance delays and "the rubber band effect." By that they mean when you go to accelerate (not necessarily floor it, but I can't say for sure) there's a delay like winding up a rubber band before it's energy is more carefully released to the wheels than the gas pedal would have indicated. Maybe it's akin to turbo lag, or driving a boat, but it sounds perhaps not unlike the "tameness" you described.

The reviewers basically complain of a "disconnected" feeling, like something is slipping. The engine sounds don't corroborate with the (lower) acceleration being experienced.

JuneBug's thoughts struck a chord as well. I noticed, for example, the new Subaru Forester, which only comes with a CVT, dropped it's towing capacity from 2400 lbs for the previous model with an automatic transmission to 1500 lbs for the version with the CVT. I can only guess it is due to the CVT because it has the same engines available as the previous year. And come to think of it, since JuneBug mentioned it I don't remember seeing CVTs available on, for example, pickup trucks, trail-rated Jeeps, performance cars, luxury sedans, etc.

And when I'm towing there are times when I want to keep the transmission from going into overdrive, and force it to stay down in 4th gear, giving me more control of overall power and performance. And people do those kinds of things (downshift) in mountainous driving, e.g. on steady downhill grades. I struggle to understand how those kinds of things would work well with a CVT, which is generally designed to try to keep the engine in the "sweet spot" for fuel economy.

It's my understanding that one of the things vehicle manufacturers like about CVTs is that they're cheaper to manufacture, as well. (But who sees CVT car prices dropping...?)

However, indications in more recent articles are that CVTs have been improving, perhaps significantly, which is very good news. For example, not that long ago CVTs were well known for a constant droning sound, but in many cases that has gotten much better.

I'd also have to at least call into question their long-term reliability, given that many are relatively new designs. For example, Nissan has had significant quality problems with the JATCO transmission in the Altima...so much so that Consumer Reports refused to recommend the vehicle explicitly because of the CVT. I sure wouldn't want to be a guinea pig consumer.

If someone can make a CVT that performs exactly, in all respects, like an automatic but still improves fuel economy (e.g. perhaps due to less friction, a more efficient design, lighter weight, etc.) that would be awesome.

I'm not at all opposed to improving fuel economy. It's forcing the loss of performance, control/"connectedness" and utility down our throats in the name of it that I dislike.

But I'm hopeful that, with continuing experience and improvements, manufacturers will find ways, for example with better designs and software, to overcome the deficiencies I see. I doubt that can happen within the next couple of years, but hopefully in the long-term they'll figure it out.

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#15 ·
The sensation of a pre set gear ration is fake. The design of a cvt is to keep the engine rpm at the best efficiency and have the cvt continuously make changes and keep the engine at the same rpm. However when people drove the cars setup that way, they didn't like it. The engine staying at the same speed just made a droning or motorboat-ing noise the whole time. So the engineers simulated gear shift with varying engine rpm changes to quell the motorboat feel. That does have an effect on efficiency not being at maximum.
Some cars even have fake shift paddles on CVT's.

Hope that's clear enough, gotta get to work, late already. Just google "fake shift cvt"
 
#16 ·
The sensation is not fake....in cvts with selectable gear ratios the computer will adjust the transmission to those particular rations......while this is no means the same as a regular transmission the ratio settings are real......this video on youtube shows how the ratio changes continuously to keep the engine in the sweet spot.....however if you want it in one of the pre set gear ratios the cvt will go to that ratio and hold it til the computer tells it to do otherwise......and until these things get much stronger I don't think you will see them in heavier applications.....but like I said before it's not bad once you get used to it......and performance minded people wouldn't get one anyway.....

How A CVT Works by TEAM Industries.mov

Found this on youtube.....pretty interesting to see how it adjust as it drives......
 
#17 ·
I'm not sold on CVT transmissions yet. My pops has a murano with CVT and it rides smooth, we'll see how long it lasts. I believe the Nissan warranty is 3 years/36k miles versus the Toyota 7 year/100k miles. I think Toyota made an excellent choice by going with the 6spd auto for the 4.4 rav4 and adding different driving modes. It allows for efficiency when you need it and peppier when you want.
 
#18 ·
I strongly suspect that CVTs are cheaper to make than are geared transmissions and that plays a large part in their increasing use by car makers, in addition to possible fuel mileage increases. But at least so far they're not up to hard work - they're not found in North American pickup trucks, for example. And reduced towing capacities in cars which have replaced geared transmissions with CVTs while using the same engines as in previous models is an obvious consequence.
 
#19 ·
We have a 2011 Mitsubishi Outlander 4 cyl with the CVT. Yes, it's probably louder than other vehicles, but we had a Saturn before so we aren't bothered too much. It does have a feature to select preset "gears" which came in very handy for us in Gatlinburg, Tennessee this past summer. The Outie and other vehicles with CVTs (like the Nissan Rogue) are rated pretty well for reliability by Consumer Reports from what I can tell. The Toyota Prius and Corolla have CVTs at this point, too.

One issue with CVTs is that manufacturers are very jealous about which fluid to use. They really want you to use THEIR kind of CVT fluid when you do the fluid change. For Mitsubishi, that comes to something like $23/quart, and you can only get it from (the diminishing number of) Mitsubishi dealers. :frown

I do think that CVTs are getting better, and Nissan got to be the guinea pig for these systems. Toyota has been moving towards it in some models, but Mazda has so far stayed away. It will be interesting to see how this develops.
 
#20 ·
I test drove a Nissan Rogue a week or so before buying my RAV4. I found the CVT to be a weird driving experience. After that I knew what the "rubber band effect" felt like.
 
#21 ·
I purchased my 2011 Base because of the V6 option wIth no regrets, I love it. However, I must admit my wife's 2012 Rogue CVT 4- Cyl is very comfortable, quiet, smooth, and surpasses the RAV4 in every way except engine power.
I feel the RAV4 is more "rugged" and rides/drives that way, possibly making it more "durable". I like the ruggedness, but I also enjoy the quiet/ comfortable Rogue
 
#23 ·
According to my October 2014 Consumers Reports the 2015 280HP Highlander Hybrid only comes with a CVT mated to the 3.5L V6 so the other models can't be far behind for CVT-only.
Hmmm, that same drivetrain dropped into a RAV4 might be interesting! :surprise
 
#24 · (Edited)
Interesting - and I read CR and somehow missed that! :surprise
Now I have to wonder why Toyota would use a 280 HP V6 engine in the 2015 Highlander Hybrid - do the electric motors have something like only 10 HP?
 
#25 ·
My biggest concern about a CVT is seeing Priuses (and unfortunately a couple of times having driven one!) on steep windy mountain roads—riding the brakes and feeling like it is going to get out of control. No gears sounds to me namely like no low gear, i.e. no engine braking and therefore relying entirely on disc/drum brakes. With this reasoning, CVT's sound too dangerous on steep hills—or am I missing something?
 
#27 ·
Toyota's MSRP for the Hybrid Limited - the only hybrid version available - is $47,500, and MSRP for the Limited V6 gasoline version is $38,840. Also one could have the LE V6 model at MSRP $32,940, so it would take some doing to convince me that I should buy the Hybrid model. And the non-hybrid V6 models all have 6-speed gearboxes.
 
#28 ·
My biggest concern about a CVT is seeing Priuses (and unfortunately a couple of times having driven one!) on steep windy mountain roads?riding the brakes and feeling like it is going to get out of control. No gears sounds to me namely like no low gear, i.e. no engine braking and therefore relying entirely on disc/drum brakes. With this reasoning, CVT's sound too dangerous on steep hills?or am I missing something?
I don't think this would be any kind of issues at all......as long as these transmissions have been out I have never heard of this happening.......
 
#29 ·
Transmissions used in HYBRID models are TOTALLY different like standard CVT and are known as E-CVT. It is confusing , but CVT is transmission based on friction , there are no gears and is similar like on small scooter bikes.Inside is a steel belt between two discs and i think this belt will be a weakness of this transmission after years. CVT are known for troubles with solenoids inside which are controlling this transmission. Those solenoids are inside in tranny and it is not possible to replace them without dissasembly of tranny. Toyota is solving this problem by replacement of tranny - after warranty very expensive solution. Here in Europe is price of new tranny something like 12000 EUR!!! We have Toyota Verso 1800 ccm with CVT and I dont like it. I ordered my RAV 4 with 6 speed manual transmission - reason - reliability( may be possible just in Europe ). . So I agree this tranny is ok for small cars with not powerfull (torque is important ) engines.I drove Toyota Auris mainly in city and it was quiet good experience.
eCVT is something else
 
#30 ·
Thanks majklcarli for the videos. They explain a lot. The first one is what I call a CVT, essentially a Snowmobile transmission where the rubber belt is replaced by a steel one. The critical difference which explains how the automotive version is able to handle a lot more power is that the belt pushes instead of pulls the driven pulley.

The second video for what's called the eCVT shows it's not a belt type CVT at all, in fact is a normal planetary geared automatic transmission but with the bands and clutches replaced with electric motor-generators. Also explains why, unlike my Honda Hybrid which only has one, at least two electric motors are needed. A planetary gear system has three gears that need to be controlled, sun, planet and ring. Since the gasoline engine only powers one, two additional motors are needed. So the Toyota Hybrid transmission, at least those up thru 2013 as stated in the video, is really an eAutomatic not a CVT.

Does that mean that CR got fooled into calling the 2015 Highlander Hybrid transmission a CVT? Probably true, but it doesn't surprise me. I recently test drove the new 2014 Accord Hybrid after reading the technical details about the powertrain. The salesman said it had a CVT which it doesn't. In fact it has no way to change gears at all and thus no transmission loss which in part accounts for the improved fuel economy. It uses clutches to connect the gasoline engine to a generator or directly to the differential. I didn't bother trying to explain no CVT and no transmission to the salesman.
 
#32 ·
This page has a pretty cool interactive demonstration of the Prius "CVT" transmission, which this page calls a Power Split Device:

Toyota Prius - Power Split Device

Interesting stuff. Clearly different than non-hybrid (real) belt-style CVTs.

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Thanks for posting - very interesting and the interactive ability allows one to actually see how the power inputs function relative to the "transmission" and output.


But when all is said and demonstrated I'm still happy that my motorcycle has a straightforward engine-clutch-gearbox combination, and I have total control over the function of each! :wink
 
#33 ·
A chart on page 62 of the November 2014 issue of Car & Driver shows that in 2013 10% of US new vehicles had CVTs, 85% automatics and the other 5% manual transmissions. For 2003 CVTs are less than a %, manuals about 7% and the rest automatics. So unless C & D is calling Prius transmissions CVTs they are gaining steadily.
 
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