JBL Premium Audio Sound Fix

coldtaco · Jan 3, 2018

RickPro said:
This system won't give you surround sound. If you move the front/rear (fader) to the rear, all you do is cut off the bass which comes mainly from the front doors. Even the sub seems to work off the fronts. If you move the front/rear bar to the front seats headrest you will get full bass response with a little from the rear speakers. You should also be hearing much clearer highs.

Yeah, I didn't mean to say surround sound. was talking about front/rear observation. before I had to have the slider (?) almost all the way back to hear from the rear, now I don't have to slide it as far rear for the same. This make sense? I don't have it set to hear only the rear

plusforce · Jan 6, 2018

RickPro said:
Those speakers are rated at 88db. The Sound Ordinance are 84db. The idea is to get the front speakers as quiet as possible so they balance with the door and sub speakers. Using 4db louder speakers might be OK, or they might defeat the purpose.

What if I just disconnect dash speakers and not install new pair?
Any idea?

plusforce · Jan 6, 2018

Quickdtoo said:
Try an automotive parts store, O'Reilly has Dorman.

https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/li.../connectors-sockets-16631/wire-connectors---quick-splice-17512?q=wire connector

What wire guage should I buy ?

RickPro · Jan 6, 2018

plusforce said:
What if I just disconnect dash speakers and not install new pair?
Any idea?

You will not get any highs, maybe some mids from the rear door speakers. The front door speakers are all bass.

RickPro · Jan 6, 2018

plusforce said:
What wire guage should I buy ?

If you are asking about the scotch locks, get red. If you are asking about speaker wire, it comes with the speakers.

plusforce · Jan 6, 2018

RickPro said:
You will not get any highs, maybe some mids from the rear door speakers. The front door speakers are all bass.

I actually couldn't wait anymore. I just disconnected dash speakers and I like it better than when they are connected. I am going to buy Ordinance P-35B speakers and 2 other models to see which one gives me better sound quality. Will let you guys know the result!

plusforce · Jan 6, 2018

RickPro said:
If you are asking about the scotch locks, get red. If you are asking about speaker wire, it comes with the speakers.

No I meant Droman splice, I think it should be Dorman (86430) 22-18.

The Crutchfield representative guy told me it is gauge 16, I bought gauge 14-18 but it is obviously too large. The wires on the speaker are at least gauge 20 or 22.

gws · Jan 7, 2018

Just did the Crutchfield speaker replacement, along with the installation of some sound absorbing material under the dash speakers. This did improve the bass response somewhat. It really seemed to improve the clarity of the sound.

One disadvantage is that the voice prompts from the navigation system are now almost inaudible, even though they are set on high. It seems that the level of these prompts is not affected by the volume control setting. So they get weaker with the lower speaker efficiency. But, given the poor quality of the nav system, I usually use a portable Garmin anyway, so this is an acceptable trade off.

RickPro · Jan 7, 2018

gws said:
Just did the Crutchfield speaker replacement, along with the installation of some sound absorbing material under the dash speakers. This did improve the bass response somewhat. It really seemed to improve the clarity of the sound.

One disadvantage is that the voice prompts from the navigation system are now almost inaudible, even though they are set on high. It seems that the level of these prompts is not affected by the volume control setting. So they get weaker with the lower speaker efficiency. But, given the poor quality of the nav system, I usually use a portable Garmin anyway, so this is an acceptable trade off.

Glad you are enjoying the new sound quality. I am surprised about the voice prompts. I used my nav the first time last Friday, and did not notice any problem with the loudness of the prompts. After reading your post I drove to the other side of the development, set my home address and let the nav take me home. Again I had no problem hearing the voice prompts. My prompt volume is set to 4 which is in the middle. You say the voice prompts are set on high. The actual volume setting I believe is 1 thru 7. It may be possible you are looking at the wrong thing for prompt volume. Hope that's all it is.

gws · Jan 8, 2018

RickPro said:
Glad you are enjoying the new sound quality. I am surprised about the voice prompts. I used my nav the first time last Friday, and did not notice any problem with the loudness of the prompts. After reading your post I drove to the other side of the development, set my home address and let the nav take me home. Again I had no problem hearing the voice prompts. My prompt volume is set to 4 which is in the middle. You say the voice prompts are set on high. The actual volume setting I believe is 1 thru 7. It may be possible you are looking at the wrong thing for prompt volume. Hope that's all it is.

Thank you! I was looking at the wrong thing (voice command prompts). The prompt volume that I really wanted was set at 4, which was too soft for me. I have turned it up, and, sitting in the garage, the prompts sound plenty loud. Will give it a try on the road next time I am out.

BobVila · Jan 9, 2018

I'm not sure what the problem is with the JBL system. I have many years experience with amplification and speaker design and my JBL system sounds just like it should given the components installed, and sound controls in the head-unit are plenty to calibrate it.

But if you think your channel levels are horribly mismatched, you can easily attenuate drivers using a fixed value resistor (which would cost a few dimes) or a rheostat (which would cost a few dollars).

RickPro · Jan 10, 2018

BobVila said:
I'm not sure what the problem is with the JBL system. I have many years experience with amplification and speaker design and my JBL system sounds just like it should given the components installed, and sound controls in the head-unit are plenty to calibrate it.

But if you think your channel levels are horribly mismatched, you can easily attenuate drivers using a fixed value resistor (which would cost a few dimes) or a rheostat (which would cost a few dollars).

Problem with the JBL system is, the sound was so bad my wife was talking about trading a one month old car. All the components other than the dash speakers are fine. They just don't get a chance to shine because the dash speakers are too loud. Changing the speakers is an easy fix, and the surprise added bonus is the new speakers sound so much better in mids and highs that the change is worth doing just for that. And where would you even put a rheostat?

plusforce · Jan 10, 2018

I ordered 3 different pairs of dash speakers from Crutchfield. Also ordered two 5 ohm, 25-watt rheostats from Amazon. Will test them one by one. each for a few days and I will update you all here. It may take one or two weeks to finish all the tests because I am too busy at work but I already ordered everything.

BobVila · Jan 10, 2018

RickPro said:
And where would you even put a rheostat?

In the speaker cavity, once you are happy with the adjustment. They are small, the size of a quarter.

Or even mount them on some panel so you can adjust them at will.

BobVila · Jan 10, 2018

plusforce said:
5 ohm, 25-watt rheostats

That's one beefy rheostat.

https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/DriverAttenuationLPadCircuit/

There is less than 5 watts of audio power going to a small mid-range speaker like that.

plusforce · Jan 10, 2018

BobVila said:
That's one beefy rheostat.

https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/DriverAttenuationLPadCircuit/

There is less than 5 watts of audio power going to a small mid-range speaker like that.

I think there should be more power on them, right now the multimeter reads 6.2 ohm, if the voltage is 12 v, the power will be 24 watts.This will be the max power. Of course, the voltage is not DC and it is not constant since it is a speaker but I think it is better to be on safe side.

Once I did the fine tune I will read the resistance of the rheostat and I can replace it with a small resistor but again a high power one (like 10w or 20 w).

plusforce · Jan 21, 2018

I tested all 3 speakers from Crutchfield and 2 rheostats.
1- JBL Club 3020
2- Kicker 44KSC3504
3- Sound Ordnance P-35B
4- 5-ohm rheostats
5- 50-ohm rheostat.

Between those speakers, JBL club 3020 was the best only in terms of sound quality but the same as OEM JBL, they were too loud.
Kicker 44KSC3504 was not good at all.
P-35B, the sound quality was not that good but it solves the balance problem just a little bit!
Adding a 5 OHM resistor makes the OEM JBL speakers the same as P-35 in terms of sound balance, but the quality will be better.

But I did not like any of them. I thought dash speakers were still too loud and rear speakers were too weak.
So I made 50-ohm rheostat series with the speaker for each side (JBL OEM). I found that somewhere around 25-30 OHM, gives me the best result.
with this, I still clearly could hear dash speakers and they are still dominant vs rear but they are also in harmony.
I still did not solder things together, hopefully in a week or so. I will take pictures and I will post them in a new thread.

RickPro · Jan 22, 2018

plusforce said:
I tested all 3 speakers from Crutchfield and 2 rheostats.
1- JBL Club 3020
2- Kicker 44KSC3504
3- Sound Ordnance P-35B
4- 5-ohm rheostats
5- 50-ohm rheostat.

Between those speakers, JBL club 3020 was the best only in terms of sound quality but the same as OEM JBL, they were too loud.
Kicker 44KSC3504 was not good at all.
P-35B, the sound quality was not that good but it solves the balance problem just a little bit!
Adding a 5 OHM resistor makes the OEM JBL speakers the same as P-35 in terms of sound balance, but the quality will be better.

But I did not like any of them. I thought dash speakers were still too loud and rear speakers were too weak.
So I made 50-ohm rheostat series with the speaker for each side (JBL OEM). I found that somewhere around 25-30 OHM, gives me the best result.
with this, I still clearly could hear dash speakers and they are still dominant vs rear but they are also in harmony.
I still did not solder things together, hopefully in a week or so. I will take pictures and I will post them in a new thread.

I'm very surprised you think the OEM speakers sounded better than the P-35Bs. Curious as to what music you listen to. The highs with the P-35Bs, cymbals especially, are much clearer and more detailed than the OEMs. The OEMs are basically a whizzer cone speaker. There is no separate tweeter. According to the JBL website:

"2 × 80/16 mm mid/tweeter Unity Extended Bandwidth speakers. Compact, lightweight, next-generation coaxials reproduce high and middle frequencies. With two diaphragms and a single motor, they perform like two speakers."

I'm also curious how adding 25 to 30 ohms of resistance to the circuit will effect the amp long term. Amplifiers are usually designed to push current into a specified load range. Going too low can cause an amp to overheat and fail, I have no idea what going that high will do, and how sound quality will be affected.

If you have the dash speakers low enough to balance with the rear speakers, you must have the fader set almost all the way to the rear or the bass, which comes mainly from the front door speakers, and the sub working in concert with them, would be overpowering.

I listen mainly to classic rock, sometimes loud sometimes soft, with some soft jazz, and light classical thrown in, and with the P-35Bs my system sounds clean, smooth, and balanced high to low. I couldn't be happier with it. If I try I can hear the rear speakers, but barely. The JBL system, like the Fender system in Volkswagen, is designed to present a front soundstage. The rear speakers are for rear passenger fill only, but if going to all that trouble to hear them makes the system good for you, great. To each his own.

plusforce · Jan 23, 2018

RickPro said:
I'm very surprised you think the OEM speakers sounded better than the P-35Bs. Curious as to what music you listen to. The highs with the P-35Bs, cymbals especially, are much clearer and more detailed than the OEMs. The OEMs are basically a whizzer cone speaker. There is no separate tweeter. According to the JBL website:

"2 × 80/16 mm mid/tweeter Unity Extended Bandwidth speakers. Compact, lightweight, next-generation coaxials reproduce high and middle frequencies. With two diaphragms and a single motor, they perform like two speakers."

I'm also curious how adding 25 to 30 ohms of resistance to the circuit will effect the amp long term. Amplifiers are usually designed to push current into a specified load range. Going too low can cause an amp to overheat and fail, I have no idea what going that high will do, and how sound quality will be affected.

If you have the dash speakers low enough to balance with the rear speakers, you must have the fader set almost all the way to the rear or the bass, which comes mainly from the front door speakers, and the sub working in concert with them, would be overpowering.

I listen mainly to classic rock, sometimes loud sometimes soft, with some soft jazz, and light classical thrown in, and with the P-35Bs my system sounds clean, smooth, and balanced high to low. I couldn't be happier with it. If I try I can hear the rear speakers, but barely. The JBL system, like the Fender system in Volkswagen, is designed to present a front soundstage. The rear speakers are for rear passenger fill only, but if going to all that trouble to hear them makes the system good for you, great. To each his own.

My feeling was OEM JBL speakers, are complementary of door speakers. They cover the frequency range that door speakers can not produce. The problem is that they are too loud, when I add resistor to them they are crystal clear but it could be my personal taste. I liked P-35B also but not enough to spend money for this defected setup...
Regrading adding resistance, it is actually inverse. If you decrease the total resistance of the speakers, then it ruins the amplifier because the voltage is constant, less resistance means higher current and then amplifier gets hot & etc ...
I usually listen to rock or alternative rock like Muse, Red Hot Chili pep...

RickPro · Mar 2, 2018

plusforce said:
My feeling was OEM JBL speakers, are complementary of door speakers. They cover the frequency range that door speakers can not produce. The problem is that they are too loud, when I add resistor to them they are crystal clear but it could be my personal taste. I liked P-35B also but not enough to spend money for this defected setup...
Regrading adding resistance, it is actually inverse. If you decrease the total resistance of the speakers, then it ruins the amplifier because the voltage is constant, less resistance means higher current and then amplifier gets hot & etc ...
I usually listen to rock or alternative rock like Muse, Red Hot Chili pep...

I finally broke down and listened to some "Muse". Not bad, if a little angry. Although they play conventional instruments their sound is heavily processed so I can understand why you wouldn't hear much difference in the speakers. However, if you or a significant other ever develops a taste for soft jazz I think you'll wish you had the separate tweeters. :smile

JBL Premium Audio Sound Fix

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