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Oil change for 2021 Rav4 Hybrid?

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#21 ·
Bernedoodle said:
The science proves light oil, 0w-16, and the accumulation of break-in particles over a 10k service limit is exceedingly safe, and will allow the engine to go 200k+ with no problems, nor the burning of oil.

The last thing Toyota wants is for their engines to have a reputation of not going the distance.

The problem is, people bring thier feelings into this question, greatly exaggerating the problems caused by swirling particles, 110F+ ambient temperatures, and the percieved loss of additive effectiveness.

Go with science, not subjective feelings, and your engine will be fine.

Excessive oil changes, are not only wasteful, but over the life of an engine shows that they’re not cheap.
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Welcome! Your first post is a reply to an oil thread. Way to go!
 
#22 ·
Coming to the Rav4 Hybrid from a 2009 Ford Escape Hybrid that we bought new and put 171K miles on it, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in on the Atkinson 2.5 engine and oil changes. In the 12 years 9 months we oved our Escape we did 18 oil changes, the first at 5K, second at 10K, and then every 10K. Why did we do the first at 5K, because I'm old school, and was taught by older school mechanics who learned in a time where new engines could have a lot of machining debris in them and dinosaur juice wasn't always to spec out of the can. When we traded the old girl in the Atkinson engine was still running like new and eating only about a 1/3 quart of oil every 10K miles. This same engine has been used in Ford Escape Hybrids through 2012, the Prius, and now Rav4, under normal conditions 10K oil change intervals are just fine. 115+ or 20 below driving will shorten intervals. So will beach driving, trails or rock climbing. But in the end, it is really up to you and your wallet, as Toyota's recommendation is the baseline minimum.

Thanks for reading my coffee fueled post. :D
 
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#23 ·
Here's a Toyota technician and a good one at that telling viewers not to go by the Toyota 10k oil change interval if you plan to keep to car for a long time. If you plan to keep the car 3 -5 years, do the 10k interval. If you plan on keeping it more than 5 years, you may want to be more conservative.

 
#24 ·
mww33458 said:
Here's a Toyota technician and a good one at that telling viewers not to go by the Toyota 10k oil change interval if you plan to keep to car for a long time. If you plan to keep the car 3 -5 years, do the 10k interval. If you plan on keeping it more than 5 years, you may want to be more conservative.

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There are far more Toyota techs who would say otherwise. Techs are not engineers, nor metallurgist, nor oil experts.
 
#25 ·
mww33458 said:
Here's a Toyota technician and a good one at that telling viewers not to go by the Toyota 10k oil change interval if you plan to keep to car for a long time. If you plan to keep the car 3 -5 years, do the 10k interval. If you plan on keeping it more than 5 years, you may want to be more conservative.

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Of course. If I'm looking for good advice regarding my car's maintenance, I don't trust the expertise of the hundreds of engineers that participated in its design and production. The most dependable car advice is usually the trade school "techs" that I find on social media.
 
#26 ·
You know, the funny thing is that I am a science guy. Not to go off topic, but this almost makes me feel like an anti-vax conspiracist. I get it.

But I also know it took a lawsuit for Toyota to deal with the oil burning on the 2AZ engines, which affected many people following the factory spec OCI. So like any company, it's not like they always have your best long range interest at heart. And I suspect that government pressure to meet efficiency standards is a bit more than their concern for engines getting to 200K - it's probably not coincidence that the "fix" to the oil burning issue was basically switching to lighter 0W-20 oil, which just happens to also improve fuel economy (the pistons and rings are basically the same). The sales and compliance teams don't blindly let the engineers dictate every spec in any company - there's always some compromises made. So it's not possible to claim that what is specc'd is what the engineers agree is best, but more likely what is acceptable.

Really this topic probably only matters to people who plan on keeping their cars for the (very) long haul. To each his own. Following the science, nobody ought to purchase an extended warranty, either - statistically, they are rarely used. But they are popular for a reason.
 
#27 ·
crazyhorse said:
Of course. If I'm looking for good advice regarding my car's maintenance, I don't trust the expertise of the hundreds of engineers that participated in its design and production. The most dependable car advice is usually the trade school "techs" that I find on social media.
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Yes, those same engineers that missed the oil sludge problem of 5 million Toyotas and Lexus sold between 1997 and 2002 which resulted in a massive class action lawsuit. My 2002 Highlander was one of the affected vehicles yet didn't have any sludge issues as I always changed my oil before the recommended interval.

And those same engineers that missed the oil burning problem of Toyotas and Scions made between 2006 to 2013. Also resulting in a class action lawsuit.

Not sure how these Toyota engineers missed these issues for years. So yes, I would take the opinion of someone who works on these vehicles every day.
 
#28 ·
Until I see evidence that these are wrong, I'll continue to go by the OM and the Maintenance Guide which have typically been trustworthy sources of information for me. I can't say the same about the information that proliferates on social media.
 
#29 ·
The one last thing I will say is that Toyota seems to take a more 'static' approach towards fluid servicing, ie 10K OCI cut & dry... It doesn't appear much weight is put on variations in operating conditions other than a little blurb in the OM that I doubt most people read, let alone truly contemplate. I've never observed my local service dept inquiring about how the vehicle is operated... towing? Uber side job? 5 mile to the store and back every winter morning? All these things impact the service life of motor oil.

At least Honda's maintenance minder system used trip length and environmental conditions in calculating service intervals - My '09 CRV service light varied between 7.5K - 9.5K depending how the car was driven. That seems entirely reasonable to me.

I guess the argument could be made that Toyota's engineers calculated that 10K was a good average, and the oil was capable of 15K under optimum conditions.
 
#30 ·
Oil changes are cheap for me and if there are any issues it'll be out of warranty before it's noticed. The two class action lawsuits that Toyota previously faced for oil issues are because it took years for customers to notice and by then they were out of luck so litigation was the only avenue. The oil sludge issue was especially egregious as Toyota only agreed to cover damages to vehicles up to the 2002 lineage, but the complaint included 2003 to 2005 models but Toyota didn't agree to remedy those models as part of the settlement so those owners were out of luck. The only reason I changed my oil on my 2002 Highlander ahead of the recommended interval was because by 2003 rumors had started to swirl even though Toyota didn't acknowledge the problem until 2007.
 
#31 ·
crazyhorse said:
Until I see evidence that these are wrong, I'll continue to go by the OM and the Maintenance Guide which have typically been trustworthy sources of information for me. I can't say the same about the information that proliferates on social media.
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Agree with you, and if people are suggesting with their own experienced it also should be noticeable!
The issue generated after some year of the warranty period, and its own responsibility to take care without giving chance to generate issues.
 
#32 ·
I conducted my own 18 year experiment with several Rav4's. 2nd Gen 2004 Rav changed the oil every 5k miles with standard recommended oil ( not synthetic ). Drove the car 4 years to 125k miles before it was t-boned and totaled. Never burned oil throughout the life of the car. Purchased a new 2009 3rd gen and immediately switched to full syn oil, initially changing at 7,500k, bumped up to 10,000k between changes half way through ownership. At 130k it was t-boned as well and totaled, no oil burning issues. Purchased a 2014 Rav4 4th gen, decided to try15,000k between oil changes with full syn. Drove to 165k and the car burned about 1/2 qt of oil between changes. Traded the 2014 in on a 2019 Rav4H. Driving 30k miles a year, 5,000 mile change pattern is 6 oil changes per year ( I use to do my own and it's relatively cheap, but now have time constraints and have it done for me ). Probably stick with the 10,000k change for the hybrid because its not really 10,000k miles worth of wear and tear, engine not running at stop lights, in heavy traffic, and sometimes driving on battery only. I can make the 2mi trip to the grocery store from my home and the engine never comes on because its predominately slight downhill grade. If you drive 5,000k miles a year its no big deal to change your oil. 30,000k a year is a different story so I try to maximize the cost efficiency with longer intervals between changes within reason. I think I have proved to myself 15k between changes has very limited effect on the engine life or performance unless you are shooting for 200-300K ownership lifespan. I know some will be outraged and caution not to go 15k between changes but if you are keeping the car to finite age or mileage, say 10 years and/or 100,000k miles, I don't see the benefit of 5,000k changes except to the next guy that owns the car.
 
#33 ·
Toyfan2 said:
I conducted my own 18 year experiment with several Rav4's. 2nd Gen 2004 Rav changed the oil every 5k miles with standard recommended oil ( not synthetic ). Drove the car 4 years to 125k miles before it was t-boned and totaled. Never burned oil throughout the life of the car. Purchased a new 2009 3rd gen and immediately switched to full syn oil, initially changing at 7,500k, bumped up to 10,000k between changes half way through ownership. At 130k it was t-boned as well and totaled, no oil burning issues. Purchased a 2014 Rav4 4th gen, decided to try15,000k between oil changes with full syn. Drove to 165k and the car burned about 1/2 qt of oil between changes. Traded the 2014 in on a 2019 Rav4H. Driving 30k miles a year, 5,000 mile change pattern is 6 oil changes per year ( I use to do my own and it's relatively cheap, but now have time constraints and have it done for me ). Probably stick with the 10,000k change for the hybrid because its not really 10,000k miles worth of wear and tear, engine not running at stop lights, in heavy traffic, and sometimes driving on battery only. I can make the 2mi trip to the grocery store from my home and the engine never comes on because its predominately slight downhill grade. If you drive 5,000k miles a year its no big deal to change your oil. 30,000k a year is a different story so I try to maximize the cost efficiency with longer intervals between changes within reason. I think I have proved to myself 15k between changes has very limited effect on the engine life or performance unless you are shooting for 200-300K ownership lifespan. I know some will be outraged and caution not to go 15k between changes but if you are keeping the car to finite age or mileage, say 10 years and/or 100,000k miles, I don't see the benefit of 5,000k changes except to the next guy that owns the car.
Click to expand...
I would agree with you, although I would not go past 10,000 miles between changes. In our world, too much old school thinking, the every 3,000 mile thinking....science says otherwise...I have gone 10,000 miles per change (using synthetic oil) in over a million miles of driving in my life, and my cars never burned oil. I never change out the oil in new cars before the normal miles are driven, and oh my those teeny tiny particles swimming in the ocean of our oil never, ever did anything adverse to the longevity of the motors. The problem is that people make this an emotional decision, a decision of feelings, instead of relying on science, evidence, the owner's manual.
 
#34 ·
mww33458 said:
Oil changes are cheap for me and if there are any issues it'll be out of warranty before it's noticed. The two class action lawsuits that Toyota previously faced for oil issues are because it took years for customers to notice and by then they were out of luck so litigation was the only avenue. The oil sludge issue was especially egregious as Toyota only agreed to cover damages to vehicles up to the 2002 lineage, but the complaint included 2003 to 2005 models but Toyota didn't agree to remedy those models as part of the settlement so those owners were out of luck. The only reason I changed my oil on my 2002 Highlander ahead of the recommended interval was because by 2003 rumors had started to swirl even though Toyota didn't acknowledge the problem until 2007.
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The oil sludge issues were because of an engine design flaw, not because the oil was left in too long. This issue has long ago been remedied, and so there is no reason to change the oil too frequently. And too frequent, and unneeded changes are not cheap...their cost adds up during the life of an engine.
 
#35 ·
Bernedoodle said:
The oil sludge issues were because of an engine design flaw, not because the oil was left in too long. This issue has long ago been remedied, and so there is no reason to change the oil too frequently. And too frequent, and unneeded changes are not cheap...their cost adds up during the life of an engine.
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Well Bernedoodle, I think we have solved this issue. No need for comments from anyone else.
 
#36 ·
Bernedoodle said:
The oil sludge issues were because of an engine design flaw, not because the oil was left in too long. This issue has long ago been remedied, and so there is no reason to change the oil too frequently. And too frequent, and unneeded changes are not cheap...their cost adds up during the life of an engine.
Click to expand...
Actually if you read the settlement, Toyota maintains that there was no such engine flaw and that any such oil sludge problems are attributable to owners' abuse or poor maintenance habits. It specifically states that owners did not follow the maintenance schedule required for their driving habits. After establishing that, Toyota agreed to reimburse owners for repairs related to oil sludge for 8 years after purchase date.
 
#37 ·
TomKatt said:
Just my 2c... I personally think Toyota is doing a disservice to long term owners (including owners down the line if the car is sold)... 10K oil change intervals will certainly get you out of warranty without issues, and even the cheapest cars today are capable of 100K miles... But 10K seems awfully long time to be driving around with the inevitable residual machining particles from manufacture, and it doesn't help that Toyota's free maintenance won't change it until then. We know the previous generation engines had potential oil burning issues caused by clogged oil rings, which was "solved" by changing the engine to run on thinner oil (5W-20 -> 0W-20)... The piston and rings are virtually the same, it's just the thinner oil tends to clog less. The new generation engines are too new to have any real history of what may or may not be weaknesses. And just because oil analysis at 10K miles indicates the oil continues to have sufficient lubricating abilities does not mean that it's degradation has not caused it to possibly begin clogging the rings or other wear related to things beyond lubrication ability.

Personally, oil is cheap. I'm sure 10K oil changes will allow cars to last for the majority of owners who replace their vehicles every 5 to 7 years without any problems whatsoever. But if you plan on getting the absolute maximum out of your new car investment, it might pay off to change the oil more often than every 10K miles - it's cheap insurance.
Click to expand...
TomKatt said:
Just my 2c... I personally think Toyota is doing a disservice to long term owners (including owners down the line if the car is sold)... 10K oil change intervals will certainly get you out of warranty without issues, and even the cheapest cars today are capable of 100K miles... But 10K seems awfully long time to be driving around with the inevitable residual machining particles from manufacture, and it doesn't help that Toyota's free maintenance won't change it until then. We know the previous generation engines had potential oil burning issues caused by clogged oil rings, which was "solved" by changing the engine to run on thinner oil (5W-20 -> 0W-20)... The piston and rings are virtually the same, it's just the thinner oil tends to clog less. The new generation engines are too new to have any real history of what may or may not be weaknesses. And just because oil analysis at 10K miles indicates the oil continues to have sufficient lubricating abilities does not mean that it's degradation has not caused it to possibly begin clogging the rings or other wear related to things beyond lubrication ability.

Personally, oil is cheap. I'm sure 10K oil changes will allow cars to last for the majority of owners who replace their vehicles every 5 to 7 years without any problems whatsoever. But if you plan on getting the absolute maximum out of your new car investment, it might pay off to change the oil more often than every 10K miles - it's cheap insurance.
Click to expand...
My Local mechanic told me s
TomKatt said:
Just my 2c... I personally think Toyota is doing a disservice to long term owners (including owners down the line if the car is sold)... 10K oil change intervals will certainly get you out of warranty without issues, and even the cheapest cars today are capable of 100K miles... But 10K seems awfully long time to be driving around with the inevitable residual machining particles from manufacture, and it doesn't help that Toyota's free maintenance won't change it until then. We know the previous generation engines had potential oil burning issues caused by clogged oil rings, which was "solved" by changing the engine to run on thinner oil (5W-20 -> 0W-20)... The piston and rings are virtually the same, it's just the thinner oil tends to clog less. The new generation engines are too new to have any real history of what may or may not be weaknesses. And just because oil analysis at 10K miles indicates the oil continues to have sufficient lubricating abilities does not mean that it's degradation has not caused it to possibly begin clogging the rings or other wear related to things beyond lubrication ability.

Personally, oil is cheap. I'm sure 10K oil changes will allow cars to last for the majority of owners who replace their vehicles every 5 to 7 years without any problems whatsoever. But if you plan on getting the absolute maximum out of your new car investment, it might pay off to change the oil more often than every 10K miles - it's cheap insurance.
Click to expand...
My local mechanic says synthetic oil is just regular oil that has been refined to change it's molecular structure and then it becomes synthetic. Is that true.??
 
#38 ·
Tony Cee said:
My local mechanic says synthetic oil is just regular oil that has been refined to change it's molecular structure and then it becomes synthetic. Is that true.??
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Don't underestimate the potential of 'just modifying the molecular structure' lol... Synthetics and conventionals are two entirely different things in the end.

Bernedoodle said:
This issue has long ago been remedied, and so there is no reason to change the oil too frequently.
Click to expand...
LOL - the 'remedy' was specifying thinner synthetic oil... The piston and rings are essentially the same design that were clogging up and sticking, destroying the cylinders. If you feel comfortable taking that solution to heart and going 10K miles per oil change, that's up to you.
 
#39 ·
1) You can follow manufacturers recommended oil and change interval and have faith their years of research and testing are valid.
2) You can follow manufacturers recommended oil change interval and have oil analyzed by Blackstone Labs ($30) or equivalent and reduce change interval based on test results if required.
3) You can change your oil based on conjecture and hearsay by the armchair mechanics.
 
#40 · (Edited)
RobertB said:
1) You can follow manufacturers recommended oil and change interval and have faith their years of research and testing are valid.
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mww33458 said:
Actually if you read the settlement, Toyota maintains that there was no such engine flaw and that any such oil sludge problems are attributable to owners' abuse or poor maintenance habits. It specifically states that owners did not follow the maintenance schedule required for their driving habits.
Click to expand...
What they tell you, what they print in the documentation and what they mean are not always the same thing. It's up to you to interpret that, and it's your loss if you interpret incorrectly. If you read between the lines, the engineers recommended 5K intervals for most of the people who suffered engine failures... The owners just assumed the 10K intervals suggested (and possibly paid for) by the dealer service department was appropriate, when in fact it was not.

Again, this whole thing is probably only relevant to those planning on long term ownership (or the poor buggers that buy higher mileage used that have adhered to the 10K OCI's.)
 
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