Short drives, long term / Hybrid vs gas

Preacher143 · Jan 9, 2023

Need help. Looking to buy my first and probably last new car.. I'm not sure I'll be able to afford another at my retirement. Almost 50 already...

Anyhow, here goes.

I drive 4, half mile trips every weekday and one, 30 mile trip every 2nd Saturday. I'm from Canada so, we're talking cold engine also.

If I'm looking to keep a new 2023 Rav4 LE, for at least 12 years, am I better off with a Hybrid for better, longer engine life? I've heard that short drives create more carbon build up, thus my concern about long term.

I'm wondering if my short trips, which are at about 50KM/h or 35MPH will sometimes rely on electric engine, therefore causing less or no carbon buildup?

Thank You
I appreciate Your opinions

LA RAV4 · Jan 9, 2023

You drive very few miles annually. I don't think the premium you'll pay for a hybrid is worth it. I'm guessing it will be much more difficult to even find a hybrid these days in your area.

I'm hoping this isn't your last new car.

Preacher143 · Jan 9, 2023

LA RAV4 said:
You drive very few miles annually. I don't think the premium you'll pay for a hybrid is worth it. I'm guessing it will be much more difficult to even find a hybrid these days in your area.

I'm hoping this isn't your last new car.

There definitely is a huge wait but I've heard that short distances are hard on conventional engines for carbon buildup so I figured, if my short dailies use electric mode, since basically 30-35 MPH for half a mile, maybe those drives would be easier on my engine. I believe the premium is about $1800, so for the 12 or plus years I'd like to keep it, I figured it wasn't that much. Thanks for the positive thought on hoping it won't be my last. =) 🙏 I appreciate the input.

mikefocke · Jan 9, 2023

Preacher143 said:
There definitely is a huge wait but I've heard that short distances are hard on conventional engines for carbon buildup so I figured, if my short dailies use electric mode, since basically 30-35 MPH for half a mile, maybe those drives would be easier on my engine. I believe the premium is about $1800, so for the 12 or plus years I'd like to keep it, I figured it wasn't that much. Thanks for the positive thought on hoping it won't be my last. =) 🙏 I appreciate the input.

Read the thread on Canadian wait times.
Canadian 2022 RAV4 Hybrids deliveries / allocations status

And consider if you really need the 4WD/AWD or SUV form factor. You pay extra for both

Cold weather is very tough on any car and your usage is extremely tough. No time to get the engine to a proper temperature on the daily trips and no time to get the battery recharged after the start for a pure ICE car. Maybe consider going for a used car with low miles planning to get another because you'd have saved enough on the first car purchase and built up some savings while you were still working.

Consider where you will park any car. Is there access to a electric power outlet for a block heater for any car and maybe a battery maintainer.

Consider maintenance. How close is the nearest Toyota dealer and how experienced are they with Hybrids?

And do they salt the roads where you drive? Read about Cablegate if you do and salting would argue for a ICE only car.

biggersm · Jan 9, 2023

The hybrid battery is only good for less than one mile, and only if you either select the EV mode or drive super slow.

I'm thinking your 30 mile trip once a month would be enough to burn off any carbon buildup.

Have you read the very large string regarding the hybrid rear drive problems at the power cable? Seems to be more of a problem with those in Canada or the Northern U.S. Although the easiest fix seems to be low pressure water being sprayed on the affected part.

Regarding if a hybrid is right, it is a simple math problem. I'm going to give my math in simple terms (but in U.S. dollars and non-metric numbers). Here is my simple math:

I get 40 mpg, I plan to drive about 8,000 miles a year which is 200 gallons per year. At $3.00 a gallon it is $600 a year in fuel. I plan to keep the car at least 7 years which is $4,200 of fuel regarding how long I plan to keep the vehicle. I will admit that I rounded a couple things, gasoline in Florida is already back up to $3.20 to $3.30 a gallon but that is offset by the fact I'm only getting about 38-39 mpg. I predit over $4.00 a gallon again this summer.

Other things are just simple seat of the pants feel, I like the way the hybrid delivers power. If you can spend the extra money for a hybrid be sure to plan some extra "for the fun of it" driving.

If only driving as much as you indicate, than a full electric vehicle might be best. Even the 30 mile trip (or even roundtrip) would be in the range of most full electric vehicles.

Best of luck with your chose.

Preacher143 · Jan 9, 2023

mikefocke said:
Read the thread on Canadian wait times.
Canadian 2022 RAV4 Hybrids deliveries / allocations status

And consider if you really need the 4WD/AWD or SUV form factor. You pay extra for both

Cold weather is very tough on any car and your usage is extremely tough. No time to get the engine to a proper temperature on the daily trips and no time to get the battery recharged after the start for a pure ICE car. Maybe consider going for a used car with low miles planning to get another because you'd have saved enough on the first car purchase and built up some savings while you were still working.

Consider where you will park any car. Is there access to a electric power outlet for a block heater for any car and maybe a battery maintainer.

Consider maintenance. How close is the nearest Toyota dealer and how experienced are they with Hybrids?

And do they salt the roads where you drive? Read about Cablegate if you do and salting would argue for a ICE only car.

Yeah, those wait times are harsh, but I currently have an older reliable car that can probably last until I get a new one. I just can't wait til it goes and then start looking. I really need a vehicle to get to work and run errons. As for the AWD and being a SUV... it's sort of been a life-long "want" for my wife and I, not really a need. I've brought my mortgage down by 45% in the past 5 yrs, now I'd love to enjoy a new car for the first time before I'm 50. 🙂

Cablegate, multiple discussions and user opinions are really holding me back from going hybrid. Especially if I'm handed over the cable repair bill after 3 yrs or 60000 km, being that I do like 10-12k per year. Probably won't have issues until after my coverage is over.

I definitely will have a block heater and trickle charger installed, no matter the version I chose.

I think I'm going to trust that, if I'm on point with the maintenance, especially oil changes (I change oil twice a year, no matter the mileage), that I should be good long term with the gas model. Right now it's leaning that way. Reaching out to a community like this is pretty eye-opening. Thanks for your input.

Preacher143 · Jan 9, 2023

biggersm said:
The hybrid battery is only good for less than one mile, and only if you either select the EV mode or drive super slow.

I'm thinking your 30 mile trip once a month would be enough to burn off any carbon buildup.

Have you read the very large string regarding the hybrid rear drive problems at the power cable? Seems to be more of a problem with those in Canada or the Northern U.S. Although the easiest fix seems to be low pressure water being sprayed on the affected part.

Regarding if a hybrid is right, it is a simple math problem. I'm going to give my math in simple terms (but in U.S. dollars and non-metric numbers). Here is my simple math:

I get 40 mpg, I plan to drive about 8,000 miles a year which is 200 gallons per year. At $3.00 a gallon it is $600 a year in fuel. I plan to keep the car at least 7 years which is $4,200 of fuel regarding how long I plan to keep the vehicle. I will admit that I rounded a couple things, gasoline in Florida is already back up to $3.20 to $3.30 a gallon but that is offset by the fact I'm only getting about 38-39 mpg. I predit over $4.00 a gallon again this summer.

Other things are just simple seat of the pants feel, I like the way the hybrid delivers power. If you can spend the extra money for a hybrid be sure to plan some extra "for the fun of it" driving.

If only driving as much as you indicate, than a full electric vehicle might be best. Even the 30 mile trip (or even roundtrip) would be in the range of most full electric vehicles.

Best of luck with your chose.

Multiple great points. Being in the Québec snow is also a concern with a few points you brought up. Maybe life will turn up a few suprises and I'll get a hybrid when they've improved in my early retirement days. For now, after much reading, Youtubing research and discussions, I'm not so confident anymore that hybrid is my best choice. Thanks for putting in your 2 cents. =)

Dontmind · Jan 9, 2023

Preacher143 said:
I drive 4, half mile trips every weekday and one, 30 mile trip every 2nd Saturday

Preacher143 said:
my short trips, which are at about 50KM/h or 35MPH

Preacher143 said:
I really need a vehicle to get to work and run errons.

Based on your short trips, low speed and vehicle usage, have you considered a low-price EV like the Nissan Leaf or Chevrolet Bolt?
Even with cold weather impact on the EV battery performance, those EVs would still meet your needs.
If the Canada government is providing incentives on buying EVs like US, it would makes the purchase even sweeter.
PS - Welcome to early retirement : )

Variman · Jan 9, 2023

Agree with @Dontmind for the OP type of driving, a pure EV is something to consider. Props to the OP for considering the shortcomings of a gas engine for short trips. That being said, Toyota now uses a dual type of fuel injection system that reduces carbon build up.

Another option is to get a plug in hybrid. With your short trips, carbon build up and other short trip gas engine related issues would be a non-issue. The vehicle would still need to use the gas engine on schedule to combat stale gas and lubricate the engine. But again, it seems that a pure EV is something to consider.

NoMoreDomestic · Jan 9, 2023

I don't think you can go wrong in either case.

The only thing I would consider is the added purchase price of a Hybrid that you will never recover.
Depending how you intend to purchase, it could be compounding.
Finance $25,000 and pay interest on the vehicle for a few years is compounded with a little extra interest and the added cost of the vehicle.
Pay cash and you've given away extra cash that you won't recover. I don't remember what the price offset is to the Hybrid, I thought it was $5000 earlier this year but I could be wrong. Maybe $5,000 isn't enough to steer you away though.

For your 1/2 mile trips, you're almost never going to be on battery mode. In the winter, the gas motor is going to run about the duration of your half-mile drive. In the summer you may not be off the throttle enough for the engine to shut down.
The 30 mile trip, if a highway type of drive, will be in gas mode the whole time unless you have a long downhill.

If you can force yourself to driving more longer trips, like do a 30 mile trip each week, you shouldn't have problems with carbon for the life of the vehicle.
To be honest, while you are likely going to experience a carbon motor is not to say it's ever going to be a problem.
Keep in mind this is not the only vehicle prone to carbon. My 80,000 F-150 was one of the big candidates for carbon. Do you plan to make it 80,000 miles? The Toyota will be cleaner than the type of Ford motor I had and my truck had no issues although I can be fairly confident it was carboned. The spark plugs were exceptionally clean with less than 70,000 on them (no signs of carbon within the cylinder/plug).

If I were buying a new car and drove 1/2 mile a day I would probably just get the gas motor, you are not going to get any benefit (at least not measurable) from a hybrid with a 3 minute drive.
You are a good candidate for an EV, but cost would need to be factored in. Dontmind and Variman make good points.

rj.parker · Jan 9, 2023

Carbon problems are going to be equivalent between a RAV4 hybrid or gas. Both use the same engine with some timing differences.

The best RAV4 for your situation, with no consideration for cost of ownership, would be the RAV4 Prime. With that vehicle you could do full EV every day except Saturday. Even Saturday would be fine if it's 30 miles round-trip. Besides having 40 mile EV capability in a hybrid situation, the RAV4 prime has additional battery weight beneficial for bad weather driving. It also uses a heat pump hvac system for cabin heat.

When the cost of ownership is considered seriously, you would gravitate to the RAV4 LE gas. I would guess you would save half the cost of ownership over 15 years.

Don't forget a hybrid model requires the engine to run in order to heat itself up and to heat the cabin. So in very cold weather the standatd hybrid engine will run quite a bit in your situation.

In addition to the added cost of a hybrid or prime version there is the long-term complexity of hybrid technology. Hybrids combine all the requirements of a gas engine with the complexity of a hybrid electric system, which means much higher maintenance costs long-term. Hybrids are best when they are traded before ten years 150,000 miles.

Even twenty years after hybrids were you introduced in volume by Toyota, there are few skilled hybrid mechanics outside of the dealers. Plus any hybrid or EV model will have an age based life span on the battery regardless of mileage.

Toyota has one of the best battery management systems but it is unusual to see a hybrid battery last more than 10 or 12 years. On a Prius there are aftermarket new batteries that have driven dealer cost down. Still you're looking yet $2500 or so for a hv battery replacement.

If you find yourself needing a car before you can get a Toyota, I would consider an all wheel drive Honda CRV from 2017 up as long as it was not a Hybrid. Honda awd is mechanical and performs more traditionally than the electric all wheel drive used on Toyota awd hybrids.

SerraAvatar · Jan 9, 2023

I too agree that a Rav4 Prime makes the most sense for your driving pattern... everything except the price that you'll likely be paying. A friend of the family who resides in Toronto Ontario paid over $50K Canadian for one and had to wait for over three months to get it. With these cars being in such short supplies and high demands I doubt anyone can really take advantage of the gas saving from the plug in aspect of the hybrid.

RobertB · Jan 9, 2023

What is this carbon buildup? I know it is an issue with some high mileage direct injected engines but why is it even mentioned here?

mikefocke · Jan 9, 2023

RobertB said:
What is this carbon buildup? I know it is an issue with some high mileage direct injected engines but why is it even mentioned here?

Probably because it was often mentioned on a Honda forum and it might even have been a Honda Hybrid forum. Have never seen it mentioned affecting a Rav4 hybrid due to the Rav4 hybrid's different injection design which squirts gas onto the intake valve to wash away any buildup in addition to squirting gas directly into the cylinder.

NoMoreDomestic · Jan 9, 2023

RobertB said:
What is this carbon buildup? I know it is an issue with some high mileage direct injected engines but why is it even mentioned here?

Carbon is a byproduct of combustion.
Seems it has been bringing more talk in recent years for some reason. Probably because the DI engines produce carbon on the valves more quickly than the predecessors.

Worrying about carbon is not something a person should be worrying about. If a person drove short miles in 1980 with a new car, it's not really any different than it is now.

The reason it is mentioned in this exact thread is because of the short drives. Any person driving 1/2 mile a day is subject to carbon buildup earlier in life. An engine that never reaches and maintains normal operating temperature will never burn off carbon.
The DI engines allows carbon to build up on the back of the intake valves. Port injection draws fuel vapor along with air through the intake. The fuel 'washes' the back side of the valve.
Regardless of carburetor, DI or Port injection, a cylinder is subject to carbon. DI engines just amplify the situation by allowing carbon on the backside of the valve.

I remember watching my dad 'steam clean' the engine on one of our old cars.
Interesting to see somebody pour water into the carb!

nels0300 · Jan 9, 2023

With regards to cost of ownership of the hybrid vs gas, it’s offset somewhat by the hybrid not having an alternator, drive belts, the brakes last a lot longer, plus whatever fuel savings you’d realize depending on how you drive and the future price of oil.

Another additional cost of the gas model is living with the relatively clunky 8 speed automatic vs the ultra smooth and responsive eCVT with instant torque.

If you’re worried about carbon buildup, the RAV4 is the only CUV that still has port injection (and direct) so that really narrows it down.

All that being said, with your driving habits, and the waitlists for RAV4s in Canada, I’d probably just wait for an Equinox EV or some new EV from Hyundai Kia that will be released by the time your RAV4 would be delivered.

RobertB · Jan 9, 2023

mikefocke said:
Probably because it was often mentioned on a Honda forum and it might even have been a Honda Hybrid forum. Have never seen it mentioned affecting a Rav4 hybrid due to the Rav4 hybrid's different injection design which squirts gas onto the intake valve to wash away any buildup in addition to squirting gas directly into the cylinder.

My thoughts also!

NoMoreDomestic · Jan 10, 2023

Uhhhh, Hondas are not the only vehicles with Carbon problems. If it has a gas motor, it can have carbon buildup. A lawnmower develops carbon.

Droid13 · Jan 10, 2023

One thing no one has mentioned is that the A25A engine in the RAV4 (and others) is known to suffer from excessive condensation inside the engine when its used mainly for short cold drives. Probably even more of an issue than carbon buildup. This contaminates the oil and may lead to early corrosion and other engine related issues in the long term. You would need to be extra meticulous about monitoring the condition of, and changing the oil regularly, even more often than Toyota recommends. You would be in "severe service" conditions with your drive, even though it seems you won't have a lot of actual km on the odo.

Outside of that, sounds like a hybrid would not at all be worth it. Your engine would be cold so much of the time that you would never gain anything (at least cost wise) from a hybrid setup (you may prefer its driving style alone). Of course, the Prime as suggested by others is another animal that possibly would be a better but much more expensive option, but Primes in Canada are really, really, really hard to get your hands on these days (I asked my local dealer in November, would not even consider taking an order, wait times are many years now).

Others have mentioned EV as a possible alternative. If you can charge at home, this may be an excellent alternative. No worries about gas engines, your trips are short so you can have the interior warmed up while plugged in to start your day. Since you are in QC, there are significant rebates available from both provincial and federal govt for purchasing an EV, up to $13000 of course depending on the vehicle.

nels0300 · Jan 10, 2023

Droid13 said:
One thing no one has mentioned is that the A25A engine in the RAV4 (and others) is known to suffer from excessive condensation inside the engine when its used mainly for short cold drives. Probably even more of an issue than carbon buildup. This contaminates the oil and may lead to early corrosion and other engine related issues in the long term. You would need to be extra meticulous about monitoring the condition of, and changing the oil regularly, even more often than Toyota recommends. You would be in "severe service" conditions with your drive, even though it seems you won't have a lot of actual km on the odo.

Outside of that, sounds like a hybrid would not at all be worth it. Your engine would be cold so much of the time that you would never gain anything (at least cost wise) from a hybrid setup (you may prefer its driving style alone). Of course, the Prime as suggested by others is another animal that possibly would be a better but much more expensive option, but Primes in Canada are really, really, really hard to get your hands on these days (I asked my local dealer in November, would not even consider taking an order, wait times are many years now).

Others have mentioned EV as a possible alternative. If you can charge at home, this may be an excellent alternative. No worries about gas engines, your trips are short so you can have the interior warmed up while plugged in to start your day. Since you are in QC, there are significant rebates available from both provincial and federal govt for purchasing an EV, up to $13000 of course depending on the vehicle.

Good point about the condensation, I saw that mentioned in a car care nut video. Also good point about the EV being heated up and ready to go all the time if you charge at home.

That new Equinox EV is supposed to start around $30K USD and is about the size of the RAV4, if Quebec has big incentives for EVs, could be cheaper or the same price as the RAV4.

Short drives, long term / Hybrid vs gas

Hybrid or Gas model for long term and very short distances ?

Hybrid

Gas

Preacher143

LA RAV4

Preacher143

mikefocke

biggersm

Preacher143

Preacher143

Dontmind

Variman

NoMoreDomestic

rj.parker

SerraAvatar

RobertB

mikefocke

NoMoreDomestic

nels0300

RobertB

NoMoreDomestic

Droid13

nels0300

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