Short drives, long term / Hybrid vs gas

Preacher143 · Jan 10, 2023

Variman said:
Agree with @Dontmind for the OP type of driving, a pure EV is something to consider. Props to the OP for considering the shortcomings of a gas engine for short trips. That being said, Toyota now uses a dual type of fuel injection system that reduces carbon build up.

Another option is to get a plug in hybrid. With your short trips, carbon build up and other short trip gas engine related issues would be a non-issue. The vehicle would still need to use the gas engine on schedule to combat stale gas and lubricate the engine. But again, it seems that a pure EV is something to consider.

I would probably love to own a Prime but I'm not willing to risk the #cablegate issues. Whether they are covered or not. I've read about cases occurring in Quebec where I'm from, costing around $6000 out of pocket. The car would be used so little that I figure the troubles would appear as soon as the warranty expires...

As for the carbon buildup, I've come across articles and videos mentioning that long term short trip driving could cause more than regular buildup, thus, possibly damaging the engine. Now the newer Toyotas may be beyond these issues but I'm just trying to be safe. This is a vehicle which I would like to keep for at least 12 years.

Preacher143 · Jan 10, 2023

nels0300 said:
Good point about the condensation, I saw that mentioned in a car care nut video. Also good point about the EV being heated up and ready to go all the time if you charge at home.

That new Equinox EV is supposed to start around $30K USD and is about the size of the RAV4, if Quebec has big incentives for EVs, could be cheaper or the same price as the RAV4.

The incentives for Toyota in Quebec are on the Prime. I was considering the regular Rav4 LE Hybrid which is only about $1800 more than the regular gas model. But the high voltage cable issue, #cablegate, has thrown me off. I'd love an EV or Hybrid, but will go with the gas model for now.

Preacher143 · Jan 10, 2023

NoMoreDomestic said:
I don't think you can go wrong in either case.

The only thing I would consider is the added purchase price of a Hybrid that you will never recover.
Depending how you intend to purchase, it could be compounding.
Finance $25,000 and pay interest on the vehicle for a few years is compounded with a little extra interest and the added cost of the vehicle.
Pay cash and you've given away extra cash that you won't recover. I don't remember what the price offset is to the Hybrid, I thought it was $5000 earlier this year but I could be wrong. Maybe $5,000 isn't enough to steer you away though.

For your 1/2 mile trips, you're almost never going to be on battery mode. In the winter, the gas motor is going to run about the duration of your half-mile drive. In the summer you may not be off the throttle enough for the engine to shut down.
The 30 mile trip, if a highway type of drive, will be in gas mode the whole time unless you have a long downhill.

If you can force yourself to driving more longer trips, like do a 30 mile trip each week, you shouldn't have problems with carbon for the life of the vehicle.
To be honest, while you are likely going to experience a carbon motor is not to say it's ever going to be a problem.
Keep in mind this is not the only vehicle prone to carbon. My 80,000 F-150 was one of the big candidates for carbon. Do you plan to make it 80,000 miles? The Toyota will be cleaner than the type of Ford motor I had and my truck had no issues although I can be fairly confident it was carboned. The spark plugs were exceptionally clean with less than 70,000 on them (no signs of carbon within the cylinder/plug).

If I were buying a new car and drove 1/2 mile a day I would probably just get the gas motor, you are not going to get any benefit (at least not measurable) from a hybrid with a 3 minute drive.
You are a good candidate for an EV, but cost would need to be factored in. Dontmind and Variman make good points.

Very glad to hear this. I'm pretty much set to going with the gas model and just doing my oil changes twice a year, no matter the mileage and try to get it on the highway once a week whenever possible.

Thanks for sharing your input.

Preacher143 · Jan 10, 2023

NoMoreDomestic said:
Carbon is a byproduct of combustion.
Seems it has been bringing more talk in recent years for some reason. Probably because the DI engines produce carbon on the valves more quickly than the predecessors.

Worrying about carbon is not something a person should be worrying about. If a person drove short miles in 1980 with a new car, it's not really any different than it is now.

The reason it is mentioned in this exact thread is because of the short drives. Any person driving 1/2 mile a day is subject to carbon buildup earlier in life. An engine that never reaches and maintains normal operating temperature will never burn off carbon.
The DI engines allows carbon to build up on the back of the intake valves. Port injection draws fuel vapor along with air through the intake. The fuel 'washes' the back side of the valve.
Regardless of carburetor, DI or Port injection, a cylinder is subject to carbon. DI engines just amplify the situation by allowing carbon on the backside of the valve.

I remember watching my dad 'steam clean' the engine on one of our old cars.
Interesting to see somebody pour water into the carb!

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I'll just cross my fingers and hope I'll do fine with the gas model... If I think carbon is bad, I'll sell in 7 or 8 years if I can afford to change it.

NoMoreDomestic · Jan 10, 2023

With your short miles, number of years won't be a problem.
Your number of miles in 12 years may be similar to somebody else driving for 6 years and we don't hear people say "I can't have a 6 year old car due to carbon".

My Ford F150 was one of the worst designs for carbon, I had 80,000 and the truck was 7 years old when I sold it. I'm sure there was a noticeable amount of carbon on the intake valves but the truck ran perfectly.

I think because you've read articles you are now aware of advanced carbon issues but in reality it is not just now a new problem. The newer engine designs utilizing dual fuel injection strategies help reduce the amount of time before any carbon becomes a problem.

Keep us posted with your car hunt!

skier6 · Jan 10, 2023

Isn't there supposed to be a free extended warranty on the HV cable to MG2 (rear drive motor) offered by Toyota in Canada? 10 year, 150,000 km ? There was something about that in the
High Voltage Cable Big Corrosion Problem thread. Look it up. If so, that is the only drawback I could see for buying the RAV 4 Hybrid. We have a Hybrid LE , and get 36 mpg in winter, up to 48 mpg in the summer.

lesz · Jan 10, 2023

But, if he is only driving mostly 1/2 mile trips, there will be very little fuel economy benefit from having the hybrid because the amount of time that electric power is being used is minimal until the ICE warms up, and, with 1/2 mile trips, by the time the ICE would be warmed up, he will have arrived at the destination and be shutting down the car.

Preacher143 · Jan 11, 2023

NoMoreDomestic said:
With your short miles, number of years won't be a problem.
Your number of miles in 12 years may be similar to somebody else driving for 6 years and we don't hear people say "I can't have a 6 year old car due to carbon".

My Ford F150 was one of the worst designs for carbon, I had 80,000 and the truck was 7 years old when I sold it. I'm sure there was a noticeable amount of carbon on the intake valves but the truck ran perfectly.

I think because you've read articles you are now aware of advanced carbon issues but in reality it is not just now a new problem. The newer engine designs utilizing dual fuel injection strategies help reduce the amount of time before any carbon becomes a problem.

Keep us posted with your car hunt!

Great info. I guess I'm trying to be as safe as possible. There obviously are no guarantees anywhere but yeah... since this is a big investment, and my first new vehicle, I'm probably over thinking it.

For fun I asked the dealership about Rav4 Prime and I was told possibly a 5+ year wait and around 2 years for a regular Hybrid.

I think my final decision will be the LE gas model. I appreciate the knowledge, thoughts and opinions shared by all. I'm glad to have found this community. I can look into good long term Rav4 care articles and discussions. The big one I have in my bag for now is, oil changes twice a year, no matter the mileage. I'm already doing this with my 2012 which I purchased used back in 2016.

Hopefully I can find this post when I receive my vehicle and update. =)

Preacher143 · Jan 11, 2023

skier6 said:
Isn't there supposed to be a free extended warranty on the HV cable to MG2 (rear drive motor) offered by Toyota in Canada? 10 year, 150,000 km ? There was something about that in the
High Voltage Cable Big Corrosion Problem thread. Look it up. If so, that is the only drawback I could see for buying the RAV 4 Hybrid. We have a Hybrid LE , and get 36 mpg in winter, up to 48 mpg in the summer.

Thanks for mentioning it, I hadn't seen that. But I asked the dealership yesterday about a Prime model and they told me possibly a 5+ year wait... ridiculous. And 2 for a regular Hybrid. I'm just going to go for the gas model.

Thanks for sharing the valuable info. Had the delivery delays been shorter, this reassuring statement may have swayed my vote. ✌

skier6 · Jan 11, 2023

We just bought a 2023 Highlander Hybrid (big RAV 4

) after a 3 week wait. 3 weeks from deposit to delivery. Even our 2021 RAV 4 Hybrid, bought in November 2021, only took 5 weeks from deposit to delivery. In both cases , these cars had been "allocated" to a dealership, to be built in the US, a week after our deposit.
But that is here in the US. These waits in Canada are crazy. I bet you could get a RAV 4 Hybrid LE sooner than 2 years.

A RAV4 Prime is built in Japan, so that can take much longer. Any car, built in Japan will take over a year, even ordered for the US market.

nels0300 · Jan 11, 2023

skier6 said:
We just bought a 2023 Highlander Hybrid (big RAV 4 ) after a 3 week wait. 3 weeks from deposit to delivery. Even our 2021 RAV 4 Hybrid, bought in November 2021, only took 5 weeks from deposit to delivery. In both cases , these cars had been "allocated" to a dealership, to be built in the US, a week after our deposit.
But that is here in the US. These waits in Canada are crazy. I bet you could get a RAV 4 Hybrid LE sooner than 2 years.

A RAV4 Prime is built in Japan, so that can take much longer. Any car, built in Japan will take over a year, even ordered for the US market.

I ordered last January and my made in Japan RAV4 took 6 months.

Are the waits getting longer in the US?

Preacher143 · Jan 11, 2023

nels0300 said:
I ordered last January and my made in Japan RAV4 took 6 months.

Are the waits getting longer in the US?

I'm in Canada. Maybe my dealership doesn't get a high allocation or there's a huge lineup... anyhow, cablegate is making me wait for a total makeover of that high voltage cable placement and/or shielding mechanism. There's tons of snow and salt in my region of Québec. Covered or not by a special warranty, I can't be bothered with the trouble. Some folks are already getting cables fixed and there's actually a wait time for the repair parts... I'll pass for now.

Thanks for the input.

nels0300 · Jan 11, 2023

Preacher143 said:
I'm in Canada. Maybe my dealership doesn't get a high allocation or there's a huge lineup... anyhow, cablegate is making me wait for a total makeover of that high voltage cable placement and/or shielding mechanism. There's tons of snow and salt in my region of Québec. Covered or not by a special warranty, I can't be bothered with the trouble. Some folks are already getting cables fixed and there's actually a wait time for the repair parts... I'll pass for now.

Thanks for the input.

Yeah, I know you’re not getting a hybrid, my question was for skier.

DougNuts · Jan 11, 2023

In Canada, I'm not sure I'd bother with a hybrid. It will not be of any benefit on your short drives. When we had the winter storm blast at Christmas time, our (garage kept) hybrid was getting low 20mpg at 0°F. Lithium Ion doesn't really like super cold temps. Now, a RAV4 Prime...that's probably a better option.

I have to wonder.......if only 0.5 mile, is walking an option?

Preacher143 · Jan 11, 2023

nels0300 said:
Yeah, I know you’re not getting a hybrid, my question was for skier.

My bad 🙂

JimL911 · Jan 11, 2023

Preacher143 said:
I think my final decision will be the LE gas model.

Be aware that the LE gas has no rails on the roof.

skier6 · Jan 11, 2023

DougNuts said:
In Canada, I'm not sure I'd bother with a hybrid. It will not be of any benefit on your short drives. When we had the winter storm blast at Christmas time, our (garage kept) hybrid was getting low 20mpg at 0°F. Lithium Ion doesn't really like super cold temps. Now, a RAV4 Prime...that's probably a better option.

Our RAV 4 Hybrid, is getting 35 MPG at 10 degrees Fahrenheit . Our LE model has the NiMh battery, not Lithium.

DrShadow · Jan 11, 2023

My SE has NiMh battery as well.
Whole idea of getting hybrid for me was to get smooth and quiet ride with more power than gas model. Improved gas economy - just side benefit.
I tried gas model - wasn't so impressed by engine noise and gearbox behaviour (and it was Limited) .

nels0300 · Jan 12, 2023

Preacher143 said:
My bad 🙂

no worries, I was hijacking your post. Just thought it’s crazy to wait a year or two for these RAV4 hybrids and primes.

That equinox EV is coming out soon and is supposed to start at $30K USD in addition to a bunch of Hyundai-Kia EVs.

The cablegate issue is specific to Toyota Lexus AWD hybrid models, not all EVs.

Preacher143 · Jan 12, 2023

JimL911 said:
Be aware that the LE gas has no rails on the roof.

Interesting point... I guess. I don't really need them but, thanks.

Short drives, long term / Hybrid vs gas

Hybrid or Gas model for long term and very short distances ?

Hybrid

Gas

Preacher143

Preacher143

Preacher143

Preacher143

NoMoreDomestic

skier6

lesz

Preacher143

Preacher143

skier6

nels0300

Preacher143

nels0300

DougNuts

Preacher143

JimL911

skier6

DrShadow

nels0300

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