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Charging my PHEV

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#61 ·
In 2021 when I purchased my 2021 R4P XSE PP ( 6.6 charger) I installed a 50 amp breaker for a Juicebox 40. I can easily do 32 amps on that 50 amp breaker ( 6 wire from sub panel in garage to outlet aprox 28 foot run) and a 60 amp breaker in the main panel to supply the garage. The garage is also supplied by solid core 6 wire. I am pretty sure I have plenty of headroom in the garage as the only other things that are in the garage are three LED fixtures, a garage door opener with two LED bulbs, two LED spotlights on the exterior and a few small computer related items. My goal was to be able to go to a full 40 amp charging in the future. If I am working in the garage the car is not charging. There is never an excuse to skimp on quality or correct wire size on electricity.
 
#63 ·
gregeusa said:
Wow, you have solid 6 gauge? Normally stranded... that must have hell to run!

(you say "6 wire", and I assume you mean 6 gauge, not 6 strand)
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Yes solid core 6 wire. It really was not that hard to run. In 1985 when I built the garage
(detached) solid core 6 was only a few cents more than stranded. It is run in buried PVC. I figured that for a few cents more a foot I would never have any issues with it. Also, since I was running 220 to the garage ( I was a forward thinker in 1985) I wanted to make sure I was protected!
 
#64 ·
Good thinking for sure... my house was completed Dec 1997, and put that extra run in and the 6 gauge while the house was under construction. Solid is harder to wrangle, but yeah, like it better myself, stranded is more susceptible to corrosion/oxidation due to the larger surface area. (I have 10 gauge outside to an outdoor railroad, and had to pull stranded, but wished I could go solid)
 
Discussion starter · #65 ·
lmcharlot said:
Let me try to clarify this whole issue. First, let's talk about Level 1, 120 volt charging. A Level 1 EVSE is what your Prius Prime, BZ4X, and Rav4 Prime come with at no extra charge. You can plug this into any 120 volt, 15 or 20 amp outlet. These EVSE's have internal current limiters that will not allow the vehicle to draw more than about 12 amps, which is 80% of the maximum rating of a 15 amp circuit breaker, which is what most homes have for the regular wall outlets. I have owned 2 of these Toyota-supplied Level 1 EVSE's, and I've never seen either 1 supply more than 10 amps. When you subtract the 8% resistive heat loss inherent in the charger (meaning the AC to DC charger under the rear seat of these cars), the actual DC power flowing to the battery from a Toyota-supplied Level 1 EVSE will be about 1,100 watts, if the outlet is actually supplying the full 120 volts. I've charged both my Prius Prime and Rav4 Prime many times on the OEM L1 chargers that the cars came with, monitoring the charge rate with an OBD-II scan tool, and 1,150 watts maximum seems to be consistant. NOTE: In some parts of the US, your power company may be supplying 220/110 volts instead of 240/120. If you live in a community where the residential transformers are of this lower voltage, your maximum Rav4 Prime charge rate on the OEM level 1 charger will also be less; about 1,000 watts instead of 1,100.

The reason that Level 1 charging is so slow, is that the building codes only require 14 gauge Romex for wiring 15 amp, 120 volt wall outlets, and 14 gauge is not very "heavy". If your house is wired with 12 gauge Romex, and a 20 amp circuit breaker, you can safely run a Leval 1 EVSE at 16 amps instead of 10 or 11, but usually you will only see 20 amp circuits in laundry rooms, kitchens, and garages, and only in homes built after 1980. You can tell a 20 amp wall outlet from a 15 amp by the configuration of the slots: if one of the slots is "T" shaped, that's a 20 amp outlet, and can accomodate either 15 amp or 20 amp plugs.

Now on to Level 2. Things get a little more complicated here. Level 2 EVSE's generally come in a bewildering assortment of power ratings and plug types. For one thing, there are three different current ratings for 240 volt wall outlets that you might see in a house (specifically in the garage or laundry room), depending on when it was built. Homes built before 1996 typically have a 3-prong NEMA 10-30 dryer outlet. This outlet is rated for 30 amps, for up to "a very short time" (1~2 minutes), and 24 amps (80% of the maximum) continuous. The circuit breaker is 30 amps, and the circuit will be wired with 10 gauge Romex. After 1996, the 3-pin NEMA 10-30 was banned because it didn't have a dedicated Neutral wire. 30 amp dryer outlets then switched to the NEMA 14-30 outlet, which has 4 prongs, but still carries only 24 amp continuous loads. You MUST NOT run a Level 2 EVSE off of a NEMA 10-30 or 14-30 dryer outlet at any current level exceeding 24 amps; the outlet might be able to handle it, at least for a few minutes, but the 10 gauge wiring in the wall will be overstressed, and so will be the circuit breaker. Personally, when I was charging off the NEMA 10-30 dryer outlet in my garage, I never exceeded 16 amps, even though the EVSE I had could go to 24 amps. This was before I installed a dedicated EV charging station with a 50 amp breaker and 6 gauge wiring.

Next you have 40 amp service. I've never actually seen this in a house myself, but there is a standard for it in the NEMA code, so somewhere there must be some houses that use it, maybe for big air conditioning compressors or electric cooking ranges. The outlet is typically a NEMA 14-50, but the wiring to the outlet will be 8 gauge, and the breaker will be 40 amps for 1 minute, 32 amps continuous. You can safely run a 32 amp Level 2 EVSE on one of these outlets, but not a 40 amp model, at least not at full power. I've seen 40 amp JuiceBox EVSE's installed in homes where the owner has an EV with a big traction battery, like a BZ4X, Nissan Leaf, Rivian, or Tesla, but thse are overkill for a Rav4 Prime.

Lastly, there is 50-amp service. If you don't have a 30-amp electric dryer outlet in your garage, and you are sick of waiting 12 hours to charge your Rav4 Prime on a Level 1 charger, this is what you want to install. 50-amp service also uses a NEMA 14-50 outlet, but the wiring between the breaker and the outlet is 6-gauge, and the breaker can handle up to a 40-amp EVSE continuously, and the usual 32 amp EVSE that Rav4 Prime owners use will be no strain at all. This is what I have. You need to be aware of a couple of things when considering installation of a 50 amp outlet for EV charging:
1. 6 gauge Romex is crazy expensive, $7.50 to $8.00/foot. If your breaker panel is within 5 or 6 feet of where you want to install the outlet, the cost is not too bad; the wire will cost you $60~70, and another $60 for a Bryant industrial grade NEMA 14-50 outlet and a metal junction box. But if your garage is like 100 feet or more from your breaker panel, you are looking at well over $1500 to install a 50 amp EVSE outlet.
2. DO NOT allow your installer to use a cheap $10 Leviton outlet for EV charging! These are meant for electric dryers and cooking ranges that do not carry high current loads continuously, and that only get appliances unplugged and re-plugged into them a few times in 20 years or more. For an EVSE, you need an "industrial grade" 14-50 outlet. These are much more rugged than household outlets, they grip the prongs on the plug much more tightly, they are made of materials that can dissipate heat better, and handle high current loads continuosly, and they are made to have power tools and air compressors unplugged and re-plugged many times a week without losing grip strength on the plub prongs. Get a Hubbell ($80) or a Bryant ($50). These are actually the same outlet, made by the same company. You know how you might say that a Lexus is just a Toyota Camry with fancier upholstery and some wood trim, but under hood they're the came car, right? A Bryant industrial grade NEMA 14-50R outlet is basically the same as a Hubbell 14-50R, for about 20 bucks less.

As for using an extension cord with an EVSE: It can be done, if you are certain of your equipment and know what you are doing. I have used a 10 gauge, 25 foot extension cord with my Level 1 EVSE. This is acceptable as long as you don't exceed 1,200 watts. 10 gauge copper wire can carry the 12 amp / 1440 watt load of a Level 1 EVSE safely, as long as the plug and socket connectors are clean and not corroded.

If you have a Level 2 EVSE with a NEMA 14-50 plug, you can buy 6 gauge extension cords from Amazon, or most RV supply stores, in 15, 25, and 50 foot lengths. I have a 15 foot one that I use with my portable Level 2 EVSE at campgrounds that have RV electric hookup pedestals; sometimes the pedestal is on the side of the parking pad opposite of where the charge port on the Rav4 Prime is located, and I need that extra 15 feet to reach it. When I use this rig, I limit the charge rate to 20 amps, well below the safe limit of the cord, and it still gives me a full charge in about 5 hours, which is plenty fast enough when I'm camping. Here's what the 50 foot cord sold on Amazon looks like:

View attachment 213572


I've used both of these extension cords to charge my car several times, and have never found any signs of heat build-up in either the cords or any of the connections.
Just be forewarned that the 50 amp RV cords are really bulky, very heavy, and pretty expensive, especially the 50 foot one; it costs $179. My 15 foot one was $59, as I recall.
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Thank you for this in-depth response. Very helpful.
 
#66 ·
beesonmichael said:
Check google for difference between Dryer outlet and EV outlet. there are a dryer outlets that also are only 30amp and should only be used in the 24amp charge setting. Your thoughts are not the same as the majority in the know. Designs dont need to be significant to be better. Just saying for those who might actually want to know what is best for charging at 32amps for a long duration.
This is not just my personal opinion, and i am trying to help the group. You can take it or leave it, but others read this also.
Have a good day.
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Older dryer outlets were 3 prong, with a ground and 2 hots. The ground is bonded to the neutral. Their max was 30 amps, for an effective usage of 24 amps. Their plug type was a NEMA 10-30. In 1996, the code was changed to a 4 prong setup, with 2 hots, a ground, and a neutral, to reduce the (small) risk of shock. The neutral returns non-consumed power. That cord is a NEMA 14-30. It’s still 30 amps. I had my 240v installed years ago for a Leaf (now on my 5th EV.) My original EVSE (and still use) is a Siemens Versicharge. It only rated for 30 amps, so it delivers 24 amps when charging. It has a NEMA 10-30 plug. it’s fast enough for me. I wish I had the NEM 14-50 setup, and I could just use an adaptor to use the Siemens with it, and when the Seimans goes, get Lectron wall EVSE, or whatever. But it’s not worth the retiring cost. We charge both an Equinox EV and a RAV4 Prime with our setup.
 
#67 ·
Dimitrij said:
I sometimes wonder why EVs do not have an onboard Level 2 EVSE as standard.

But you can always buy a portable EVSE for a couple of hundreds of dollars and a bunch of adapters so you can plug into almost anything you may find, like outlets for RV power supply, clothes drier, electric range etc.
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It comes down to placement. Dryer placement is often in the kitchen or the basement. A 50 foot extension cord is unreasonable.
 
#68 ·
Small correction to rpgmdinc:

older dryer plugs were 2 hots and a neutral... not a ground... often the neutral here is called a "hot ground" (yes the neutral is bonded to ground at the breaker panel)

This is the reason it changed to a 4 circuit connector with a "real" ground... and also clearly facilitated GFCI on this circuit as well.

greg
 
#69 ·
gregeusa said:
Small correction to rpgmdinc:

older dryer plugs were 2 hots and a neutral... not a ground... often the neutral here is called a "hot ground" (yes the neutral is bonded to ground at the breaker panel)

This is the reason it changed to a 4 circuit connector with a "real" ground... and also clearly facilitated GFCI on this circuit as well.

greg
Click to expand...
Stand corrected. My daughter just bought a new house with a 10-30 dryer plug in the garage. To charge her Tesla (she has the same Siemens EVSE I have) we bought a box that both plug into. It defaults to the dryer side, but both are plugged in at the same time. If the car charges, the dryer shuts off. It’s worked flawlessly.
 
#72 ·
#73 ·
#76 ·
rpgmdinc said:
If there’s still EV miles left on the RAV4, I often use the Toyota 120v cord, and use my level2 charger on my Equinox EV. We put about 10k/yr on the RAV4, and I’d guess a fillup less than once a month, unless there’s a road trip in there. We have rooftop solar as well.
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I have rooftop solar, Tesla batteries, and charge the BMW, Fisker, and Rav4 with the 240V. I have (2) 14/50 outlets off of my dedicated subpanel. I believe it is more efficient to charge with the 240 than the 120V. (As the car needs to be in "a state of charge" for longer on 120V) cooling fans run longer etc.
 
#77 ·
beesonmichael said:
I have rooftop solar, Tesla batteries, and charge the BMW, Fisker, and Rav4 with the 240V. I have (2) 14/50 outlets off of my dedicated subpanel. I believe it is more efficient to charge with the 240 than the 120V. (As the car needs to be in "a state of charge" for longer on 120V) cooling fans run longer etc.
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Completely agree. Sunrun offered to put up I think 6 more panels and 2 Tesla batteries. $56k! I mentioned I’m 78yoa, that wasn’t happening. Nice setup!
 
#79 ·
rpgmdinc said:
I’ll give you $15k. For that Fisker!!
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😂 I bet you would. Just got it new for 23999 from Newport Beach .
I’d does have a few occasional bugs. But they go away and it doesn’t affect the 564hp 0-60 in 3.7-3.9. Still a lot of car for the price. If it dies I can use it to power the house for 2weeks per charge, and parts are worth 4x the car value. So I am not concerned with “what ifs.” I got my prime if I need it.
 
#80 ·
rpgmdinc said:
Completely agree. Sunrun offered to put up I think 6 more panels and 2 Tesla batteries. $56k! I mentioned I’m 78yoa, that wasn’t happening. Nice setup!
Click to expand...
Solar optima did my system for 26900 after rebates 17500, and 2 Tesla batteries were free due to incentives 29200 for batteries only cost me 1800 for panel work.
SCE program. Charging outlets were a favor from my electrician.
In the end 56100+power install… maybe 1900.00 so round to 58K work for 19,300.

Congrats on the 78. That is 22 away for me, and probably will not make it.
 
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