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#21 ·
wait, you should see more than 42 miles EV on a prime/pluggable after charging?

No one has ever said that from all my reading on the forum, and mine has always topped out at 42 miles, either from my L2 charger or charging via the ICE...

so, where does this statement come from: "Note that you should see more than 42 EV miles available after charging with the EVSE. "

?? this is getting worse not better
 
#22 ·
that 42 miles is an estimate based on your recent driving. charge mode doesn't charge as fully as plugging the vehicle in so if you saw 42 miles after going as far as you could with charge mode you should theoretically be able to tack some more miles on by plugging it in.
 
#23 ·
gregeusa said:
wait, you should see more than 42 miles EV on a prime/pluggable after charging?

No one has ever said that from all my reading on the forum, and mine has always topped out at 42 miles, either from my L2 charger or charging via the ICE...

so, where does this statement come from: "Note that you should see more than 42 EV miles available after charging with the EVSE. "

?? this is getting worse not better
Click to expand...
ICE charge mode will only give you 80% of full charge - so not sure why you're getting the same 42 miles from charge mode and plugged into AC... if you're getting 42 on ICE charge mode - then you should get over 50 plugged into AC... i average around 50 miles when I plug into AC - but then I just drive around town and rarely go on the freeway...
 
#24 ·
gregeusa said:
wait, you should see more than 42 miles EV on a prime/pluggable after charging?

No one has ever said that from all my reading on the forum, and mine has always topped out at 42 miles, either from my L2 charger or charging via the ICE...

so, where does this statement come from: "Note that you should see more than 42 EV miles available after charging with the EVSE. "

?? this is getting worse not better
Click to expand...
Yes people have seem up to 60 EV miles although that number is an outlier. I usually see around 52 miles in the summer, mid forties in the winter. 42 miles is just the average that Toyota publicizes, but it is easy to do better or worse than that depending on driving habits.
 
#25 ·
So, the fact that the app reports the traction battery is at 100% and I can get there on ICE charging, or L2, what's your answer, it's impossible?

I'm not telling the truth?

Again, you have not given a source for the sentence I am questioning: where does this statement come from: "Note that you should see more than 42 EV miles available after charging with the EVSE. "

please substantiate your claim these sentence is true, i.e. a Toyota source.

I think you are taking a poorly translated sentence from the manual and reading something into it.

Bottom line: my car will charge the traction battery to max 100% / 42 miles range either way...
 
#26 ·
gregeusa said:
So, the fact that the app reports the traction battery is at 100% and I can get there on ICE charging, or L2, what's your answer, it's impossible?

I'm not telling the truth?

Again, you have not given a source for the sentence I am questioning: where does this statement come from: "Note that you should see more than 42 EV miles available after charging with the EVSE. "

please substantiate your claim these sentence is true, i.e. a Toyota source.

I think you are taking a poorly translated sentence from the manual and reading something into it.

Bottom line: my car will charge the traction battery to max 100% / 42 miles range either way...
Click to expand...
pg 112, 2024 Prime Owner's Manual -

"The plug-in hybrid system can be switched to hybrid battery (traction battery) charge mode to charge the hybrid battery (traction battery) using electricity generated by gasoline engine operation.

The maximum charge amount in the hybrid battery (traction battery) charge mode is approximately 80% of the fully charged capacity for the charging from an external power source."

so you should not be getting the same full charge amount (42 miles) from both types of charging - if you are, something is haywire... according to the manual it is impossible... take it up with Toyota...
 
#27 ·
gregeusa said:
So, the fact that the app reports the traction battery is at 100% and I can get there on ICE charging, or L2, what's your answer, it's impossible?

I'm not telling the truth?

Again, you have not given a source for the sentence I am questioning: where does this statement come from: "Note that you should see more than 42 EV miles available after charging with the EVSE. "

please substantiate your claim these sentence is true, i.e. a Toyota source.

I think you are taking a poorly translated sentence from the manual and reading something into it.

Bottom line: my car will charge the traction battery to max 100% / 42 miles range either way...
Click to expand...
My car charges to about 80% and stops charging in charge mode. Others have reported the same. This is what the manual says it does, in multiple places (my quote was from page 77, @trutheart found it on page 112 - pages may vary slightly with year). I assumed my car was working according to the manual. Maybe your car is special and does not stop charging. Your statement sounded like your car always shows 42 miles for a full charge. Look around here and you will find that people have got the car to read up to 60 miles for a full charge. I assumed that since you got 42 miles in charge mode and the manual says 80% charge is the limit, then you should get more miles with the EVSE.
 
#28 ·
Yeah, never have seen the EV range over 42... now, have I gotten more than 42, yes.

I understand it is an estimate... maybe my driving is so consistent it does not vary.

I'll run it in charge again and see if it indeed does not get to 42... by the way, what is the year and model/trim level of your car... Truth has same same year, but an SE, I have XSE... doubt there is any difference between trim levels of '24 primes... wonder if firmware same...
 
#29 ·
gregeusa said:
Yeah, never have seen the EV range over 42... now, have I gotten more than 42, yes.

I understand it is an estimate... maybe my driving is so consistent it does not vary.

I'll run it in charge again and see if it indeed does not get to 42... by the way, what is the year and model/trim level of your car... Truth has same same year, but an SE, I have XSE... doubt there is any difference between trim levels of '24 primes... wonder if firmware same...
Click to expand...
22 XSE - The manual has not changed with regard to the 80% in charge mode.
 
#31 ·
OK, so I stand corrected.

The system would say: battery full... and I assumed that meant 42 miles of EV range, based on "full" from a level 2 charger always goes to 42 miles... since new last year.

Today, the ev range was 34 miles... tried to force charge mode, and it said "battery full" and would not go into charge mode..

ran it down to range of 33 miles... still would not enter charge mode.

at 32 miles of range, it would enter charge mode... drove for a while (wow what a pig!) and as soon as it got to 33 miles of range, it turned off charge mode...

so 9 miles short of "real" full is all I could do in charge mode... so if that is 80%, then that is close to the 33.6 miles of range that would be 80% of my 42 miles, and of course it's most likely a less accurate measurement of 80% of actual charge state.

Learn something every day... so my mistake was assuming "full" on charge mode was the same as "full" on outboard charging... ugh... I get it, probably since I was driving, the thinking is that once charged it would revert to HV mode and want the "room" to add via regen...

I'll have to repeat this at the top of a long steep grade, and see if it charges with the regeneration once "charge mode full" is achieved... can't say I like it... if I want to charge my traction battery fully, it should let me, just like the member who wanted the fullest charge before entering "ev only" zones..

Greg
 
#32 ·
gregeusa said:
OK, so I stand corrected.

The system would say: battery full... and I assumed that meant 42 miles of EV range, based on "full" from a level 2 charger always goes to 42 miles... since new last year.

Today, the ev range was 34 miles... tried to force charge mode, and it said "battery full" and would not go into charge mode..

ran it down to range of 33 miles... still would not enter charge mode.

at 32 miles of range, it would enter charge mode... drove for a while (wow what a pig!) and as soon as it got to 33 miles of range, it turned off charge mode...

so 9 miles short of "real" full is all I could do in charge mode... so if that is 80%, then that is close to the 33.6 miles of range that would be 80% of my 42 miles, and of course it's most likely a less accurate measurement of 80% of actual charge state.

Learn something every day... so my mistake was assuming "full" on charge mode was the same as "full" on outboard charging... ugh... I get it, probably since I was driving, the thinking is that once charged it would revert to HV mode and want the "room" to add via regen...

I'll have to repeat this at the top of a long steep grade, and see if it charges with the regeneration once "charge mode full" is achieved... can't say I like it... if I want to charge my traction battery fully, it should let me, just like the member who wanted the fullest charge before entering "ev only" zones..

Greg
Click to expand...
There are a couple of reason why they might limit charging:
1) the last bit of charging takes a bit longer, so the ICE is running in charge mode longer for a given amount of charge making it less efficient to use charge mode.

2) If the car is set to HV mode with a full charge, the car slowly bleeds off charge to 80%. (It uses the electric motor to supplement the ICE.) Once it is bled down to 80%, then the number of EV miles stays steady. This is probably the reason that it does not charge higher than 80%, because it would then turn around and use the battery until 80%, creating a vicious cycle if one keeps changing to charge mode when the EV miles are down.
 
#33 ·
#1 does not make sense, because the reason the last bit of charging is at a lower rate, which is how you reach actuall full charge on a lithium.

Since the charge rate is lower, the load on the motor is lower. It's really not less efficient, just a slower charge rate at a lower current.

2. Yes, you "bleed down", although there is no bleeding, you use the battery and when it gets to about 80%, then using it more "qualifies" you for the ICE charge mode.

I'll watch it more, but I think you are not exactly correct, I saw the ice clearly charge the battery and move the car.. so where is the vicious cycle? The charge mode does not automatically resume, so where is the cycle?

Stopping charge mode at 80% is the same as stopping at 90%, is the same as stopping at 100% (of course indicated 100% is not actually fully charged in reality)

There is no vicious cycle, just probably the thinking that once you have charged the battery as much as they will let you, then you should stay (and indeed this happens) in hybrid mode... which will give you the best economy, whereas fully charging the battery leaves no room for regeneration as soon as it switches from charge to hybrid mode.

logical, but not what I would like.
 
#34 ·
I wonder if the reason the system only charges to 80% when in charge mode could be related to the typical lithium battery charging strategy/cycle. Specifically, the initial part (and majority of) the charging cycle is typically done at constant current with the cell voltage floating upwards as they charge. The final part of the cycle typically changes to a constant voltage strategy when the cells reach the target final voltage. i.e., at that point the current drops over time while the voltage remains constant to finish the charge cycle.

It seems possible that, due to engineering and/or marketing constraints, the on-board (engine driven) charging components/circuits were not designed to handle the entire charging cycle.

It also seems possible that limiting the charge mode charge level to 80% is a way of consciously preventing people from using it to stay at a high SOC continuously for battery longevity/warranty reasons.

(And, just to avoid any confusion or misunderstanding, I do understand that (all of the above aside) the system limits the actual SOC to between approximately 14% to 90%, presumably also for longevity/warranty reasons.)
 
#36 ·
mejmea said:
I wonder if the reason the system only charges to 80% when in charge mode could be related to the typical lithium battery charging strategy/cycle. Specifically, the initial part (and majority of) the charging cycle is typically done at constant current with the cell voltage floating upwards as they charge. The final part of the cycle typically changes to a constant voltage strategy when the cells reach the target final voltage. i.e., at that point the current drops over time while the voltage remains constant to finish the charge cycle.

It seems possible that, due to engineering and/or marketing constraints, the on-board (engine driven) charging components/circuits were not designed to handle the entire charging cycle.

It also seems possible that limiting the charge mode charge level to 80% is a way of consciously preventing people from using it to stay at a high SOC continuously for battery longevity/warranty reasons.

(And, just to avoid any confusion or misunderstanding, I do understand that (all of the above aside) the system limits the actual SOC to between approximately 14% to 90%, presumably also for longevity/warranty reasons.)
Click to expand...
Your theories sound plausible.

Another explanation could be that Toyota wants to minimize the risk of the RAV4 Prime owners spending "too much time" in the charge mode and thus ruining their mgps.
 
#37 ·
gregeusa said:
#1 does not make sense, because the reason the last bit of charging is at a lower rate, which is how you reach actuall full charge on a lithium.

Since the charge rate is lower, the load on the motor is lower. It's really not less efficient, just a slower charge rate at a lower current.

2. Yes, you "bleed down", although there is no bleeding, you use the battery and when it gets to about 80%, then using it more "qualifies" you for the ICE charge mode.

I'll watch it more, but I think you are not exactly correct, I saw the ice clearly charge the battery and move the car.. so where is the vicious cycle? The charge mode does not automatically resume, so where is the cycle?

Stopping charge mode at 80% is the same as stopping at 90%, is the same as stopping at 100% (of course indicated 100% is not actually fully charged in reality)

There is no vicious cycle, just probably the thinking that once you have charged the battery as much as they will let you, then you should stay (and indeed this happens) in hybrid mode... which will give you the best economy, whereas fully charging the battery leaves no room for regeneration as soon as it switches from charge to hybrid mode.

logical, but not what I would like.
Click to expand...
Try this. Get in the car with a full EVSE charge, start it, switch to HV mode noting the number of EV miles. Drive for about 15-20 minutes in HV. What is the number of EV miles now? If the starting EV miles was 42, are you now closer to 33? This is what I meant about bleeding (using may be a better description). The car brings the EV miles down to 33 or so. If charge mode is allowed at any time rather than the 80% limit, then the user could put the car in charge mode. It charges to 100% (remember this is not how the car works). Then it comes out of charge mode and the EV miles start to decrease say to maybe 35. Put it in charge mode again (in theory). Car charges to 100% and comes out of charge mode. Miles decrease to about 38. User puts it charge mode again. Charges to 100%. See the cycle? Essentially if the user were allowed to do this, it would effectively defeat the purpose of charge mode as charging the battery involves some losses. Discharging the battery involves some losses. So essentially, some of the fuel used to charge the battery would be lost to heat losses. Thus the car does not let you charge to 100% to prevent the user from continually using charge mode to try to maintain 100% of the EV miles.
 
#39 ·
gregeusa said:
I'll try the experiment and report back. I suspect the "bleeding" really depends on speed, acceleration, number of stops, and hills.
Click to expand...
It will always run the EV miles down to 80% and then stop. The rate it does this does depend on the load on the system (i.e. the more energy required to move the car, the faster the EV miles run down. It also will never make those miles back unlike when you are down to 20 miles and switch to EV, the miles may fluctuate a bit around 20, but typically it will get back to 20. Unless of course the car is shut down before it has a chance to get back to 20.
 
#40 ·
OK, not sure what the point is, or perhaps it is points...

Let me take your previous post and try to answer, and indicate what experiment I will do.

Get in the car with a full EVSE charge, start it, switch to HV mode noting the number of EV miles.
>> like I said, 42 miles is the estimate always after full external charge.
Click to expand...
Drive for about 15-20 minutes in HV. What is the number of EV miles now?
>> less of course... but let's see where you are going
Click to expand...
If the starting EV miles was 42, are you now closer to 33?
>> well of course you can drive until it drops to 33, or more, I did not drive enough in HV mode to see how it drops, and this is the experiment.
Click to expand...
what I said I tried and observed today, was finding how low the traction battery on EV mode needed to get before I could engage the charge mode.

This is what I meant about bleeding (using may be a better description). The car brings the EV miles down to 33 or so.
>>> yes of course....
Click to expand...
If charge mode is allowed at any time rather than the 80% limit, then the user could put the car in charge mode.
>> let me correct the sentence, I think you mean "If you could put the car in charge mode at any level GREATER than 80% capacity".... what you are saying is simply "if you could put the car in charge mode at ANY battery level"
Click to expand...
THEN (under this premise)
It charges to 100% (remember this is not how the car works).
>>> yes of course, or at least some level greater than 80%
Click to expand...
Then it comes out of charge mode and the EV miles start to decrease say to maybe 35.
>>> no, why couldn't it taper off the charge to reach 100% and then stop charging??? That was my point..
Click to expand...
Put it in charge mode again (in theory). Car charges to 100% and comes out of charge mode.
>> again so what? you are talking about charge mode being all or nothing, why couldn't it just direct whatever is needed to charge to 100%?
Click to expand...
Miles decrease to about 38. User puts it charge mode again. Charges to 100%. See the cycle?
>> no, you are making charge on off rather than charging as needed... could be in charge mode, but the charge amount tapers (as in a NORMAL battery charger) until it tapers to zero.
Click to expand...
Essentially if the user were allowed to do this, it would effectively defeat the purpose of charge mode as charging the battery involves some losses.
>> now you are invalidating charge mode because of losses? there are ALWAYS losses... this is a red herring
Click to expand...
Discharging the battery involves some losses.
>> of course and not relevant
Click to expand...
So essentially, some of the fuel used to charge the battery would be lost to heat losses.
>> happens in EVERY electrical circuit on earth unless you have a superconductor!!! red herring
Click to expand...
Thus the car does not let you charge to 100% to prevent the user from continually using charge mode to try to maintain 100% of the EV miles.
> once you tried to use electrical losses to justify whatever your claim is you lost...
Click to expand...
The charge and discharge cycle of the batter is ALREADY in operation in HV mode...

This is just about how fully the system will charge the battery in charge mode... as I stated, it's just a limit that Toyota imposed, and several good theories have been brought forwards, but this is not one of them because you are ALREADY in a continuous charge/discharge situation in normal HV mode..

Greg
 
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