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e90 said:
Will the 2.7 be the next new I4?
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=137266

2.7 has 187hp @5800 and 186 tq @ 4100rpm - (Future?)
2.5 has 179hp @6000 and 172 tq @ 4000rpm - ( 2009+ )
2.4 has 166hp @6000 and 165 tq @ 4000rpm - (2006-08
I think the 2.7 is just a variant of the 2.5 with slightly larger displacement, but they are probably pretty much the same engine. The Highlander (and Venza) are slightly larger vehicles, so they probably get a little more power to compensate for that.

But the 2.5 in the RAV4 gives adequate power for most drivers, so I doubt they will replace it that quickly.

I believe the larger 4 cylinders are the future. Gas prices are bound to rise again, and the large 4 cylinders are highly efficient while providing adequate power. 27 mpg for a Highlander on the highway is pretty impressive.
 
It's a whole new engine series.

the 2.4L is the 2AZ-FE
the 2.5L is the 1AR-FE
the 2.7L is the 2AR-FE

The 4.13 in stroke on the 2.7L version is massive. It's only 3.26in on the V6. What that means is much faster piston speeds for a given RPM and a whole heckuva lot of vibrations to quell. Looks like a neat engine in concept - it has just short of 3.0L V6 power in a much smaller and lighter 4-cylinder package for probably about the same power to weight ratio as the V6 to begin with. My only question is, how does it drive, and will it sound and feel good or be terrible? I'm normally not a fan of large displacement 4-bangers because they tend to be "super stroker" designs with high piston speeds and lots of uncontrolled NVH issues. This would set a new record for strokes I've seen in passenger cars. Toyota has some pretty good experience with large displacement 4-cylinders, so hopefully the 2AR will drive pretty good.

The piston speeds will be so high in this engine that at 3000 rpm under load it will really be more like about 4000 rpm compared to a more normal engine. Hopefully Toyota is pulling out all the stops they can to keep NVH under control (dual balance shafts, active motor mounts, lots of sound deadening, etc)
 
BTW, there are some massively mixed up bore and stroke figures out there.

2009 RAV4: http://pressroom.toyota.com/presstxt/2009toyotakit/2009RAV4_sfo.pdf

Toyota is quoting 3.54" bore x 3.10" stroke for the 2.5L. I was really excited when I saw that elsewhere because it'd mean an oversquare "big block" 4-banger with far lower piston speeds and less NVH to handle. Except those specs are inaccurate. If you do the math, that only comes out to 2.0L, not 2.5L. Since it doesn't appear to be a 'big block' 4-cylinder given the massive 4.13" stroke of the 2.7L (assuming that's accurate), I suspect the AR-series engine might be an extended version of the current AZ-series but with a raised deck height to accomodate the additional stroke. You have to change a lot of parts to accommodate a deck height variation, so Toyota might have just called it a new engine series. I'd be curious to know how many parts are shared between the AZ and AR. I'm going to see if an SAE paper has been written on the new engine and see what I can find out.

Nissan pulled a similar deck height extension trick with their VQ series engines a few years ago. The original VQ V6 was designed for 2.0L to 3.0L displacements and wasn't designed with 3.5L in mind. So they did an extended deck height version for the higher performance models to give the block a bit more rigidity and I think they use that in the 4.0L version for the trucks too. Since they established a brand around the "VQ" moniker, they didn't change the engine series, although from what I know it's different in a lot of ways too.
 
STeve,
Interesting post.
When I hear long stroke, I think torque, and I smile.
I agree, large displacement 4cyl make sense in trucks that require torque.
The public has been fed horsepower #'s for so long, they lose sight that torque is what pulls your trailer or propels your loaded car over the mountain pass.
I think modern big 4's have balance shafts and modern engine mounts to handle the NVH.
I would take a big 4 over a small six anytime.
Give me a low pressure turbo, ala Volkswagen or Volvo and it rocks.
 
thinkingman said:
When I hear long stroke, I think torque, and I smile.
I agree, large displacement 4cyl make sense in trucks that require torque.
The public has been fed horsepower #'s for so long, they lose sight that torque is what pulls your trailer or propels your loaded car over the mountain pass.
.
This is so true. :thumbs_up:

Paraphrasing a famous engine builder/racer John Lingenfelter in a book on building high performance Chevy engines wrote, "for street performance engines I always design and build the engine for maximum torque." He said this in context with the point he was making about HP and TQ. Aside from racing engines where HP may be more important than torque, better street performance can be achieved with engines built with nice fat TQ curves!
 
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ordpete944 said:
Porsche made a 3.0 liter 4 cylinder for years. 208 and 236 hp in the different variants. good mileage too. I am all for a large displacement 4 cylinder engine.
ah good call, I forgot about that one. But it's also an interesting contrast.

Engine: Bore x Stroke
Toyota 2AR-FE: 90 x 105mm (3.54 x 4.13in)
Porsche 3.0L : 104 x 88mm (4.10 x 3.46in)

The Porsche is truly a 'big block' 4-cylinder, with an enormous 104mm bore. That gives tons of valve area good for making lots of top-end with. Since they're making the displacement with the giant bore, they can limit the stroke length which also keeps piston speeds down so that you can rev the thing. It's very over-square. The Toyota is just the opposite. I wouldn't compare the Toyota engine to the Porsche, LOL. Two very different engine designs with likely very different driving characteristics as well. :lol:
 
SteVTEC said:
The 4.13 in stroke on the 2.7L version is massive. )
Massive, indeed. :shock: The 383ci stroker engine (from 350ci block) I have in my Camaro has a crank with a 3.75" stroke.
 
thinkingman said:
STeve,
The public has been fed horsepower #'s for so long, they lose sight that torque is what pulls your trailer or propels your loaded car over the mountain pass.
There is definitely some interesting information/thoughts in this thread, and I agree with what thinkingman wrote.

I'm not very mechanically-inclined with cars, but still can enjoy driving, window shopping, or reading information about them. I believe I found out through general usage that torque is more important. I do consider it important.

I think torque is more important than HP for what I call 'burst acceleration', which is accelerating from an already moving state. This could be for passing, merging, an evasive manuever, or picking up speed while going up a hill. And it definitely seems that torque helps more when a vehicle is under load.

I like the V6 option in the RAV4, but was disappointed that the HP number is higher than the TQ number. (I'm used to V8s where usually the reverse is true). But, I still see so many people (or salesmen) just toss around the HP figures like that is all there is to it.
 
I agree with the importance of torque and a good powerband over peak horsepower numbers, but you're talking about two different things when talking about a sports car and a V8 and then this 2.7L engine in the vehicles Toyota is putting it in. :p

A sports car is lightweight, and the fact that you already have a big V8 with excessive displacement means you don't have to worry about top-end power on the engine. The fact that it's big means it's already going to have plenty of top-end power which means you can concentrate on great low-end and mid-range power which is where you're at most of the time anyways, even in a lot of racing situations.

Now look at the two vehicles this 2.7L engine is slated for, the Venza and the Highlander. Both of these are heavy vehicles. A base FWD 4-cylinder Venza is already tipping the scales at 3800 lbs, the Highlander is even heavier. Given the weight classification alone, 2.7L is no longer "excessive" displacement. And since the engine is relatively small, you must still concentrate on top-end power development because you're not going to have enough power available down low or even into the mid-range in higher power demand but still common everyday (and not unusual) situations.

(A quick aside. Yes a larger bore oversquare engine does fundamentally favor top-end more, and a longer stroke undersquare engine does favor low-end torque more, but most grocery getter or even higher performance engines for that matter are never pushed nearly hard enough or developed to an advanced enough state where you're really see a huge difference from this. The old 3.0L Nissan VQ engine was very oversquare yet still produced great low-end torque via an appropriate set of cams, intake manifold and port design. And then Honda does make a 2.4L "super stroker" undersquare 4-cylinder with 205hp @ 6800rpm in the Acura TSX. All you're doing is balancing the different components that go into an engine and the various ways you can design them against each other to get whatever output characteristics you want. You don't truly start to see the difference between oversquare or undersquare until you get into racing engine designs. :))

Our Highlander is about 3900 lbs with AWD and a V6, the older 3.0L. It performs OK and that's it. I was excited because I thought with the Venza you'd be able to drop the V6 and save 200 lbs and drop the AWD if you can get by without it and lose another 200 lbs and come out with a pretty spacious FWD sedan/wagon/"thing" at 3500 lbs and have respectable performance with a BEEFY 4-cylinder. But nope! Looks like Toyota already used the 200 lbs they saved from being able to stuff a 4-cylinder in there and porked the car up elsewhere! I hate that! :( So despite being a "torquey" 4-cylinder, you're still going to have to push the thing pretty hard, and given the super hail mary stroke it's likely to have very bad NVH characteristics unless Toyota really did go all out as far as taking care of this. If not it'll sound and feel like crap.

I'd love to see the 2.7L in a car like the Camry at about 3300-3400 lbs. The engine power wise literally would be as good as a V6 while still giving better handling with a lighter engine over the front wheels. And since now you have a pretty light vehicle on your side, you won't need to push the engine as hard as you would in a Venza or Highlander. Maybe you don't need more than 3000 or 4000rpm on a daily or weekly basis and have all the power you need without exceeding that, in which case the majority of nasty noises and NVH that large displacement 4-cylinders can make is not nearly as much of an issue. (Conspiracy theory alert). I doubt that will happen though, because people might be pleased enough with the 4-cylinder that they'd skip the V6 and Toyota would lose the opportunity to make a bundle more money on the bigger engine. If the base engine is enough, it's a difficult sell on an optional one. Such is marketing.

Anyways I'm really anal about the sound and feel of engines. Some people aren't and might not care, in which case the 2.7L will be great either way. You can't argue with "nearly" V6 performance while still retaining 4-cylinder like fuel economy. I still hope Toyota really went all-out on the NVH issues on this thing though, and that they bring it to the smaller and lighter weight cars like the RAV4 and Camry.

Between a 2.7L super-stroker 4-cylinder and something like the 4GR-FSE 2.5L V6 in the Lexus IS250, I'd go for the small V-6 in the case of the Venza or a Highlander. If you're going to have to wind something out a lot due to having a smallish engine in a heavier vehcile, it might as well sound and feel pretty good while doing so. V6 engines are already much better balance and NVH wise than 4-cylinders, and since you've got 6-cylinders to play with vs 4, you don't have to super stroke each one to get the displacement you need. The 2.5L V6 has a tiny little 77mm (3.03in) stroke and the resulting low piston speeds will let it happily rev to 4, 5, or even 6000rpm and beyond without breaking a sweat or sounding like it's straining itself in the least bit. If Toyota doesn't take care of the NVH on the 2.7L well, it'll sound like it's straining and laboring big time even at 3000 rpm.

Like usual I'm in the middle and slipping through the cracks of what the manufacturers offer. On one hand there's people who are never satisfied and that's what the 269hp 3.5L V6 is for. I have no idea what to do with 269hp in this vehicle and am rarely if ever above even 4000rpm. I can't even get to peak torque most of the time. Yes, I'd much rather have maybe 10 lb-ft more torque at 1000 lower rpms, even if it cost me 10-20hp up top. I'm never up there anyways. It'd drive more like the Nissan VQs which I still love. :) OTOH, the base 4-cylinders aren't enough for me and sound and feel bad to my overly sensitive ears. There's no middle ground. I see the potential in this 2.7L (conditionally, if Toyota went all out on taking care of NVH), but unfortunately we're not going to see it if all they put it in is 4000 lb beasts where it's already going to be underpowered. :(

Sorta like when BMW came out with their Double VANOS 3.0L I-6 in the 5000 lb X5, but you knew they were going to put it in the 3-series before long and they did. And how Acura has a sweet little turbocharged 2.2L 4-cylinder, but only in the 4000 lb RDX. Let's see what it can do in the much smaller and lighter TSX already! I know more than a few TSX fans who were enormously disappointed when the redesigned TSX came out with pretty much a carry-over engine from the last generation and no turbo.
 
Good points.
I had the 2.4l in my RAV and from the outside of the car, it was pretty snorty.
From inside, you had very little NVH.
I think they have it figured out.
Just for kicks, you should drive my 1.8l turbo/intercooled VW Passat Wagon.
3500lb and not lacking for power.
Even better, try a TDI VW.
You will never feel lacking for torque there, either.
They even started a race series featuring spec Jettas with the TDI.
Pretty good racing.
 
I was not at all impressed by the sound and general feel of the 2.4L in the RAV4, but it's very subjective and could be due to a lot of things. Maybe I sit in a position where the sound deadening isn't as good as a shorter driver. Maybe my ears are particularly receptive on the frequencies where the 4-cylinders tend to make a lot of racket? Or maybe I'm just spoiled by all of the 3.0L and now 3.5L V6 cars I've owned. :p I've driven some other 4-cylinder cars and some feel and sound great and very refined, and others are horrible, and whether I agree or disagree with whatever consensus might be out there appears to be highly random. YMMV, I guess.

The turbo VW motors are nice, but need premium gas, and aren't particularly known for great NVH characteristics either. They do put out great torque though! The newer 2.0L TFSI is said to be particularly harsh, but I've never driven one myself. I have heard one from the outside, and it was accelerating hard and making quite a racket. Diesels make great torque but fall flat at the top-end, so passing and merging power can be very limited. I'm looking forward to seeing some of the newer diesels that are supposedly coming to the US though. It's always "next year". :?
 
I tend to redline the 2.4L now and then. With the premium gas, it doesn't sound harsh when you're pushing the engine. I've yet to switch over to Mobel-1, but once I do, I'm sure the engine will get more smooth. Not sure about the V6, but the exhaust system seem well mated to the 2.4L and opens up nicely at high rpms. You don't get the sense that the exhaust is holding the car back. Plus, the 4spd tranny on the 2.4L gets aggressive (quick to downshift and hold the revs).

btw, great write-up on short block vs long block. I suspect mainstream engine are getting to the point where a long block (over square) engine can handle all the stress from high rpm running. If so, imagine what Toyota's 2.7L could do with a turbo to give it boost at high rpm...
 
SteVTEC said:
So despite being a "torquey" 4-cylinder, you're still going to have to push the thing pretty hard, and given the super hail mary stroke it's likely to have very bad NVH characteristics unless Toyota really did go all out as far as taking care of this. If not it'll sound and feel like crap.
Steve, you make some very good points (like always) and I would like to comment on one of them. When using a smaller displacement engine like the impressive (on paper) 2.7L, the oems do need to get creative. On heavier vehicles they can and must tweak the tranny and diff gearing ratios properly to make up for the lower TQ on the smaller engine. If not, then you end up with unimpressive performance as you describe.
 
Pars said:
I tend to redline the 2.4L now and then. With the premium gas, it doesn't sound harsh when you're pushing the engine. I've yet to switch over to Mobel-1, but once I do, I'm sure the engine will get more smooth. Not sure about the V6, but the exhaust system seem well mated to the 2.4L and opens up nicely at high rpms. You don't get the sense that the exhaust is holding the car back. Plus, the 4spd tranny on the 2.4L gets aggressive (quick to downshift and hold the revs).

btw, great write-up on short block vs long block. I suspect mainstream engine are getting to the point where a long block (over square) engine can handle all the stress from high rpm running. If so, imagine what Toyota's 2.7L could do with a turbo to give it boost at high rpm...
Pars, can you further explain how your engine sounds better when you use a higher octane fuel? Are you getting valve train clatter or preignition detonation using 87 or 89 octane?

Also, generally speaking a "short block" refers to an engine block with complete bottom end build and without cylinder heads. A "long block" refers to an engine block with bottom end build with cylinder heads and sometimes an intake manifold. These terms are generally used for levels of rebuilt engines.

A complete four cylinder engine is not a short block version of a six cylinder engine, at least in USA hot rodding parlance.
 
Well, I am pretty happy with the vibration and noise of the I4. It's usually smooth as silk. The only time you can feel some noticeable vibration is when the A/C is running on a hot day. But I noticed this on other 4cyl cars, too, such as Nissan Altima and Honda Accord.

SteVTEC, you seem to be pretty knowledgeable in this area, maybe you can explain to me how the A/C impacts the vibrations coming from the engine? Thanks!
 
Interesting comments on the NVH as generated by 4 cyl, especially of large displacement.

I haven't driven very many FWD 4cyl cars, so when I do they "feel funny" (sorry, I'm not very technical with cars :?) For instance, I had a loaner of an 02 Accord 4cyl. 2.3L, automatic. Whenever I was sitting at a stop light, I would feel this odd, rapid-beat vibration come through the car and into the steering wheel. I felt if I had to drive that car for an extended time, my arms would have probably gotten sore from holding the wheel with that vibration. To me, almost every FWD 4cyl I've driven has had a "go-cart" feel, I think largely from the vibration. I guess this would just be that 4cyl tend to have more vibration than engines with more cylinders?

(This isn't to say that FWD 4cyl configurations are inferior; just that to me, being unused to them, it always feels odd to drive one.)
 
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