RAV dead on the road with a P0340 code

RAVanti · Aug 19, 2009

Our 2000 has a little over 100k miles on it. Recently a rattling noise started under the hood that seemed to be coming from the general vicinity of the timing belt. I didn't do the timing belt at 90k because I didn't want to tackle it without an air compressor. I've been looking for one I could afford and I figured I could squeak by for another couple thousand miles. My last RAV had 120k on its original timing belt, but it was really well maintained. I bought this baby off of eBay...

Anyways, my wife got stranded yesterday so I guess I figured wrong with my figurin'. :?

We had the RAV towed back to the house and I put my code reader on it. The only code in there was a P0340, which is a camshaft position sensor circuit failure. I haven't had a chance to take anything apart at this point, but I've got a couple of questions so I know how to proceed from here.

1. Is the ECU smart enough to distinguish between an actual circuit failure (i.e., a broken wire, loose connection, or dead sensor) and camshaft position sensor pulses that might be happening at the wrong time (say after skipping a tooth or two on the timing belt)?

2. Is the following scenario logical (or likely)? The noise I was hearing was the impending failure of one of the tensioners which, when it failed, allowed enough slack in the belt to let the camshaft get out of sync with the crank - which then threw the P0340 code.

3. Is there another sensor on this engine that the ECU uses to determine whether or not the cam is in sync? Like a crank sensor, maybe?

4. Is it OK to use aftermarket parts? Since this is going to result in me doing the timing belt with or without a compressor, I want to know how you all feel. If it is OK, which ones are best?

I've been turning wrenches for a lot of years, but it's all been on antique cars, rods, & motorcycles. I'm pretty much a babe in the woods when it comes to fuel injection and engine management stuff. TIA for any help you can give me.

Bill

brett gazdzinski · Aug 19, 2009

Why would you need a compressor to do a timing belt job????

I ordered the timing belp parts on line, they sell kits with the belt, the tensioner, idle roller, tensioner spring, the water pump (just front part) I got seperate, along with new coolant.
I did not order the cheapest parts, but a good known brand kit.

The cam sensor wont kill the motor I think, so just do the timing belt job and see if the problem is fixed.

Buy new coolant, use the same as what is in there, mine had the Toyota stuff so that was what I put in, BAD things happen if you mix coolant types.

Brett

RAVanti · Aug 19, 2009

The compressor would let me use my air tools. For one thing I've got these really big hands that don't fit in those tiny Toyota places, and for another I figured it would make at least the crank pulley bolt part of the job more manageable. At the moment I'm still without one, though, so I'm stuck having to do it with hand tools.

I've found a couple timing belt kits on eBay that seem to be using quality parts and they're around $200. If you've got a better source or a better price, please pass it along.

Thanks for the heads-up on the coolant. I was figuring on a good flush, followed by either Zerex's new Asian Vehicle Coolant or G-05, depending on how much Toyota wants for theirs.

brett gazdzinski · Aug 19, 2009

I did not see the possibility of using any air tools, space is way to tight, as a matter of fact, I used the 1/4 inch drive socket set a lot.
I had no problem getting the crank pully off, that was one of the easy things.

Do a web search (google) on toyota parts, there are loads of places, auto parts warehouse, thepartsbin, toyota parts barn, etc.

I dont know if ebay is the best place to shop, some sites list a whole bunch of different kit brands which you can choose from....I think I got a bates? kit, the people who make the belts...

As far as coolant goes, I figure toyota has a VERY high reliability rating, so they are unlikely to use crappy coolant, otherwise the head gaskets would leak or other bad (unreliable) things would happen...

Brett

calgaryrav4 · Aug 19, 2009

1-the ecm only looks for a sensor signal that is out of an operating range to cause a code ( can be a ground short, broken wire, bad sensor or a bad connector). It can not determine what is the cause of the failure, that's up to the person working on it.

2- the noise before was probably the impending failures as you said.

3- the cam sensor only tells the ecm if the #1 is in TDC compression or TDC exhaust. The crank sensor tells the ecm the actual crankshaft angle and the engine speed.

I wish I knew more about toyota ecm logic. What is the bare minimum need to run even if just in limp mode ( could our engine run without the cam sensor etc.)? Anybody feel adventurous?

4- I dont see any problems using aftermarket parts, be aware that sometimes they dont fit right (rare but happens). I really like using the OEM belts as it has all the proper timing marks on it and aftermarket doesn't (not necessary but it makes life easier, especially on quad cam V6's and V8's). I would get prices from the dealership and other aftermarket places to compare. Sometimes you will be surprised by the dealer. If you plan on keeping the rav and doing the work yourself I highly recommend buying the Toyota repair manual (its expensive but worth every penny!!, it beats Chilton, Haynes, Michel on demand, and any other source hands down.)

Test specs for 98 rav

Cam position sensor 835 - 1400 ohms cold, 1060 - 1645 ohms hot

Crank sensor 985 - 1600 ohms cold, 1265 - 1890 ohms hot

cold is -10.C (14.F) to 50.C (122.F)
hot is 50.C (122.F) to 100.C (212.F)

RAVanti · Aug 19, 2009

1-the ecm only looks for a sensor signal that is out of an operating range to cause a code ( can be a ground short, broken wire, bad sensor or a bad connector). It can not determine what is the cause of the failure, that's up to the person working on it.

That's kind of why I was fishing around to see just what kinds of events would trigger that error code. Obviously from a troubleshooting standpoint there's a whole lot of difference between no impulse and an out-of-sync impulse.

I've been eyeing those factory shop manuals on eBay and I'm really tempted, but $100 (or more) for a couple of books is a lot of dough for me right now - especially since I'm going to have to spring for a bunch of parts.

Thanks for the specs for the cam sensor!

Bill

calgaryrav4 · Aug 20, 2009

the more I read into the P0340. It looks like the only two events that could bring up this code are;

-no camshaft sensor signal to ecm during cranking (two full rotations of crank shaft has to occur before it brings up code.

-no camshaft position signal to ecm with engine speed @ 600rpm or more.

It doesn't say anything about being out of sync with crank would cause a P0340 so as long as the computer receives a signal that is within proper operating range it will not throw a p0340 even if it is completely out of sync ( It probably would run horribly or not at all). I had written down before that it could throw a code if it is out of sync but that is not true, I will change #2.

With the noise you had it before it died it could be the belt broken/ skipped some teeth, tensioner broke, broken sensor or the signal plate that is mounted on the camshaft pulley is loose or broken free. It still could be wiring but the noise points more to one of the above.

RAVanti · Aug 20, 2009

I really appreciate you digging into that for me. It looks as though my question is answered. Thanks!

I'll take the specs you gave me and have a look at the camshaft position sensor today. Weather got really ugly here yesterday and stopped all work.

The rattling noise I referred to has been present in all 3 of the RAVs I've driven. My first RAV started doing it at about 100k miles, but it wasn't all that obnoxious. When the nice cell phone girl totaled that car for me the potential replacement I test drove made the same noise so badly it scared me off of buying it. This one's been the worst, though. The night before it went DOA I drove it around the block and it made more racket than I'd ever heard before.

I'm dreading doing the job but I'm really anxious to get in there and see just what the heck happened. The engine doesn't sound quite right when it's cranking and a couple of times it seemed like it was close to starting, but didn't. There's a faint odor of raw gasoline at the tailpipe and I definitely have spark, so...

RAVanti · Aug 21, 2009

progress update

I tried to get the top timing belt cover off, but wasn't able to get to the bottom rear bolt. What a bear! I thought maybe I could reach it from the bottom, but no dice. The car has A/C AND P/S, so there are hoses all over the place. I gingerly moved 'em as best I could, but they're still a major pain. I suspect I'm going to have to take the RS motor mount out before I can get in there, but since I've got to do that anyway to do the job it's no big deal.

In case anyone's interested today's price for the parts is $427.39 from my local Toyota dealer. That's for the belt, the cam seal, the crank seal, the oil pump seals, the complete water pump assembly, the tensioner, tensioner spring, and idler. Half of the total price is in the last 3 pieces...

brett gazdzinski · Aug 21, 2009

I did not replace any seals.
I only bought the front part of the water pump, the back part has no moving parts and does not wear out, I left that in place. You can get just the front part of the pump on line...

Sometimes I leave things that are not causing problems alone.
I would replace the entire water pump, its seals and hoses, and the other seals, plus the oil pump on the NEXT timing belt job, at about 180,000 miles.
That is about 60,000 miles from now.

On the son's camry 4 cylinder, the oil pump leaked, but the source of the leak was the shaft wore a deep groove in it where the seal rides, so I got a new pump.
That was at 250,000 miles though.

Jack the rav up, remove the wheel well liner, take the motor mount off, move the AC compressor, get a 1/4 inch drive socket set (a good one) with lots of extentions and the swivel thing, get new drive belts for the ps and alt/compressor.

I paid LESS than 1/2 your price for the belt, front water pump, tensioner, idle roller, spring.

My two problem spots were the power steering pump mounts (bolts rusted away), and the water pump phillips head screw that aligns the front and rear parts of the pump before all the bolts go in, it was tight, no room for an impact screwdriver, I drilled it out with a dremal, the only thing that would fit in the space...

Also, the timing belt cover gasket crumbled, I split a rubber vacuum hose and used that to replace the bad part of the gasket.

Otherwise, the job was easy, just take a picture of the compressor mount, lots of hardware there to mix up...

The actual belt replacement went fine, (you can NOT turn the motor backwards or the belt jumps).

Get some beer, put the tunes on, use a fan to keep the bugs away, and enjoy some quality time with the rav!

Brett

RAVanti · Aug 22, 2009

I only bought the front part of the water pump, the back part has no moving parts and does not wear out, I left that in place.

Brett

When I was talking with the parts guy at Toyota he said they only stock the pump as a complete assembly - at the insistence of the technicians. According to them it's easier and faster to replace the entire assembly, and if the shop is paying them flat-rate they're going to want to get the job done and outta there as fast as possible. I'm sure you lost time to that Philips-head screw, so I'm guessing they want to avoid those kinds of setbacks.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm feeling intimidated at the moment, mostly because of all the special tools I see being referred to in the stuff I'm reading. I think your advice of a fan, a cool beverage, and some tunes is excellent stuff and I'm going to take it.

Thanks again.

Bill

RAV dead on the road with a P0340 code

RAVanti

brett gazdzinski

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brett gazdzinski

calgaryrav4

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calgaryrav4

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brett gazdzinski

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