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2AR FE Cold Start Issue

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32K views 44 replies 13 participants last post by  ravenuer  
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#1 ·
This TSB has been out since 6-2010 and wondering if anyone with the 2.5 I-4 ( 2AR-FE ) engine had the repair done ? My 2010 Rav suffers from this dreaded start up noise which sounds horrible for about 1 second when starting cold. I am not happy with my dealer since they can't even do a proper oil change ! At oil change #1 they left the oil filter loose leaking oil all over and at #2 the filter housing had a slow leak again plus they over filled the oil by 1.5 quarts ??? I did mention the issue and the TSB to them at the last service and they replied...... oh yeah, we did a few of them. Of course I need to leave the vehicle overnight for them to hear the start up, but I am very weary about them doing any further work on my Rav ! This procedure tears a good portion of the engine apart in order to change the cam gear and I fear this will be a never ending nightmare, plus knowing they have to do this to an engine with only 10,000 miles on it just kills me. I was kind of hoping it would work itself out over time but I think it is doing further damage by not taking care of it.

Here is the TSB

T-SB-0146-10, Brief Engine Knock/Rattle Noise at Cold Startup, dtd. 6/910
2010 – 2011 Camry Engine(s): 2AR Transmission(s): 6MT, 6AT

2009 – 2010 Highlander Engine(s): 1AR Transmission(s): 6AT

2009 – 2010 RAV4 Engine(s): 2AR Transmission(s): 4AT

2009 – 2010 Venza Engine(s): 1AR Transmission(s): 6AT

Immediately following a cold soak startup, some 2009 – 2011 model year vehicles equipped with the 1AR-FE and 2AR-FE engines may exhibit a brief knock/rattle noise from the engine compartment for
approximately one second. Follow the repair procedure below to address this condition.

3.5 Hours to replace camshaft timing gears,,

This TSB applies to vehicles produced BEFORE the Production Change Effective VINs shown below.

Camry:
TMMK 4T1BF3EK#BU123642
SIA 4T4BF3EK#BR090887
Tsutsumi JTNBF3EK#A3005237
 
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#6 ·
I had similar issue when I have the 8th Gen Honda accord i4. Cold rattle noise. It's hard to diagnose the problem. The noise happen randomly. It's very noticeable when you left the car sitting for a week or so. I wound up trading my 08 accord in at 30k. Your best bet is to get the start up problem recorded and show it to the service manager.
 
#10 ·
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#8 ·
Still getting this at start up and trying to figure out when and if I want this TSB done. Few have posted that they where having the cam gears changed but never re post with the results :(.....hate that !!! I just hope the reason for not following up is because the repair was successful ?
 
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#11 ·
Thanks for the update Yuma, and thank you for posting the full TSB proceedure. Wow ! looks like they really dig deep in there for this fix. I have been getting the grind about 1 out of every 5 cold starts, but happens even more as it gets colder outside. Been trying to catch it on video and of course the past three starts have been fine....lol.
 
#12 ·
#13 ·
Unbelieveable. Any difference with people running 0-20 vs 5-20?

Wonder if this is an 0-20 thing? Seems to affect quite a few models. I wonder if the new gears are redesigned to hold lubrication better after shutdown?

I don't want someone ripping apart the top of my 2.5. What the hell is going on with Toyota?
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#14 ·
Glidescope - No difference in oil type or viscosity. This started within the first 5000 miles after my July 2010 purchase. I had 0 - 20 synthetic put in as suggested by the dealer and made no difference, at 10,000 I went back to 5 -20 Dyno and no change. Being a Mobil 1 fan I recently did an oil change myself adding M-1 5 - 20 and still no change ?
I have been holding off because it kills me knowing how invasive this procedure is. After seeing the TSB and the photo with an adjustable wrench holding back on the cam as they pry the intake gear off just killed me ! I have friends and family that work for dealerships and the goal is to get in and get out, eliminating some of the steps in procedures like these ( to gain time ). I might be a bit over judgmental and hope I am wrong, but I went with Toyota for reliability and longevity and not to start having major engine work done in it's first year. This VVT / cam gear has been an issue for many years in many engines and models ( see the other Toyota and Lexus forums ), you think they would have got it right by now.
 
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#17 ·
Diagnosis confirmed, parts on order and will schedule to have the repair done next week. It's a real pity that they have to rip apart my Rav's engine with only 18000 miles on it, but I just couldn't stand listening to that grinding morning start any longer. I hope Toyota techs are as good as they say and they do the right thing. I will keep posting with a progress report and follow ups for those of you with this same issue.
 
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#18 ·
Dropped off the RAV yesterday for the big job. It was supposed to be done today but they would like to keep it another day to make sure no leaks are present, they also mentioned the oil pan was removed ??? I am really nervous now since I do not see anything about the oil pan being removed in the TSB procedure. I know I am over reacting and should chill, but it just sickens me that this NEW engine has to be torn apart like this and hope I don't have a future of leaks due to this.
Will update when I get it back.
 
#19 ·
Rav4Drummer said:
Dropped off the RAV yesterday for the big job. It was supposed to be done today but they would like to keep it another day to make sure no leaks are present, they also mentioned the oil pan was removed ??? I am really nervous now since I do not see anything about the oil pan being removed in the TSB procedure. I know I am over reacting and should chill, but it just sickens me that this NEW engine has to be torn apart like this and hope I don't have a future of leaks due to this.
Will update when I get it back.
Click to expand...
Sounds like they dropped something and it fell into the pan requiring them to remove it to retrieve it. At least they didn't just leave it there!
 
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#21 ·
Update -

I picked up the RAV 4 and 100 yards out of the dealer the check engine / traction control lights came on ? I did a U-turn and took her right back. They did a diagnosis and tell me the whole thing needs to be taken apart again because the timing is off. I am so disgusted and so so so sorry I bought a Toyota. I sold my Jeep because I was tired of making trips to the dealer to have the engine ripped apart repeatedly and here I am in the same position with this hunk a junk !!!
 
#24 ·
Hmmm...was it really defective or did they screw it up? We'll probably never know.




Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app
 
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#28 ·
Thanks Yuma, I have read about this in many posts including your experience and a few others on the Lexus and TD forums. I am wondering how the first New cam gear fails on many who have had this done ? I went into this knowing I probably would have the same experience but was kind of hoping Toyota would have this straightened out by now. This has been a major problem for Toyota and a TSB would not have been generated if it where not, what I don't understand is why their technicians can't get it right THE FIRST TIME ! Specially since this TSB has been in place for so many years ?
 
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#29 ·
Okay, got my RAV4 back in one piece. I actually got to talk to the tech who did the job and I said to him.....what happened ? He told me the first cam gear stayed locked and never released during rpm changes causing the miss timing issue, probably a defect ??? I asked him why the oil pan had to come off ? He actually admitted dropping a cotter pin down into the pan and had to remove it to retrieve. I thanked him for being honest and actually digging in there to get it. I drove about 60 miles and so far so good, they did do an ultra clean job considering how much had to come off the engine but in my mind the poor Rav has band aides all over it. I just hope this actually fixes the issue once and for all ( New gear assembly # 13050-0V011 ) installed ? I will continue to monitor and update my start ups.

Thanks for all the info and feedback, and sharing my frustrations.....LOL !
 
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#30 ·
Start ups have been somewhat quiet so far with your normal cold start clatter, but that gear grinding sound has not returned.
But sadly I was smelling some oil burn off and sure enough I found a small leak in the valve cover gasket !!!...........URRRGH !!!
Not supposed to be experiencing this with a 1 year old vehicle...........I am so so disgusted and this has soured my vision of what Toyota was supposed to be. The engine will be coming apart for the third time and Toyota executives will be hearing from me !!!
 
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#31 ·
5 days and 400 miles later - THE NOISE IS BACK !!!

I'm really not sure where to go at this point ? This horrible sound can't be good for the long term life of the engine and Toyota can't seem to get this one right ! I really love the RAV and do not like any other small SUV's.....Yes I have been shopping. Do I go back to the same dealership and have them tear it apart again ? Do I try another dealership miles away ? Do I contact Toyota Corporate about it ?
 
#32 ·
Rav4Drummer said:
5 days and 400 miles later - THE NOISE IS BACK !!!
I'm really not sure where to go at this point ?
Click to expand...
Mine has about 1,000 miles on the repair and no noise,,, Sorry to here yours is back :oops::eek:

So, I think that Toyota can get it right....just it takes a couple/few tries??? :wall
I would take it back to the same dealer and I would call Toyota too, my two cents. :(

Good Luck,

Yuma,
 
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#33 ·
Went back to the dealer today to show them the 4 leaking rear valve cover bolts. The service tech says oh no big deal - we will just take it in back and re-torque the bolts. I didn't even mention that the grinding noise still exists due to my fear of them touching the internals again. They had my Rav for about 20 minutes and when they returned it to me the tech said they just cranked down on the bolts with no torque wrench to try and stop the leaks, and if it don't stop leaking to come back again !
I just grabbed my keys and left in disgust ! First..........you never touch a bolt on an aluminum engine when it's HOT !!!.......And without a torque wrench ???
Of course it's still leaking, maybe a little slower but still leaking. I now own a brand new, oil leaking, noise grinding piece of junk thanks to these incompetent idiots.
I guess I will have to try another dealership and go through this all over again ?
 
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#34 ·
You should call the dealership, ask to speak to the district manager. If they don't give you the guy's name then call Toyota Corporate!

I wonder if there were a bad batch of Cam Gears that slipped into production? My rav5 has 136 000 KM and it started fine today in -20 celcius (-4 faranheit) and it didn't have any gear replaced....
 
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#35 ·
#36 ·
That's a lot of crud! I presume those are carbon chunks? Makes me wonder if they have partly clogged your oil control valves (for VVT camshaft timing). Maybe that's been the problem all along?

By the way, there is a tech tip out, "Watch for leaks in oil pan of 09-10 2AR and report findings to Corporate." Might be why they pulled your pan. But it is disappointing -- how can you get something as simple as the oil pan wrong?
 
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#37 ·
I will be visiting another Toyota dealership in my area today. Some friends and coworkers recommend their services, so I figure it might be worth a shot to speak with their service manager for some advise on where to go with this. I'm sure I will be calling headquarters by this afternoon ?
My concerns will be......

- The problem was never corrected and was the job done right ?
- The valve cover is leaking and they never torqued it correctly ? ( used old gaskets for second timing gear ).
- What is with all the metal and junk in the oil and filter ?
- What is the longevity of this engine with whats going on inside ?

At this point my wife would like me to trade the car in and get a Honda or Hyundai, but I really love the RAV4 design and ride and says I'm a moron for even thinking of another Toyota product. I would also be looking at a 6 to 7 thousand dollar loss !

Thank you all for letting me vent here !!!
 
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