The thing to keep in mind that Toyota recommendation is based moderate Temps of a country as a hold not individual states. Some major shops in Florida won't even use anything less than 30w. I started using amsoil 0w30 in my 08 rav4 early on over 20w but till this day have never had an engine problem with over 635 and still drive 250 miles every other day.

 

OK but the '08 RAV does not have an oil pump electrically controlled for pressure and flow rate by the computer which was calibrated in the software for 0-16W like the 5th generation RAVs.

 

Well all I can say is my mpg went up which may suggest the engine is operating more efficiently.

 

Well all I can say is my mpg went up which may suggest the engine is operating more efficiently.

And that is Toyota's main priority/concern, mpg, not longevity.

As posted above, many use 0-20/30W in warm climates with no issues.

 

Remind me to NEVER buy a used car from you, Oh I forgot, this is the reason I NEVER buy used cars.

 

You nailed it they have epa standards they have to meet. Longevity and engine protection is never mentioned but fuel economy is mentioned often when recommending oil viscosity.

 

Oil threads never disappoint.....

 

Nearly 60 posts on an oil thread and no one has given their Amsoil discount code yet?

My local auto part stores do not stock decent 0w-16 oil so I ordered a couple cases of Amsoil. I've changed my oil every 5K with full synthetic for years and plan to contiune to do the same with my new RAV. Heck it's high enough to make it easy to DIY.

other family cars:
2010 Rav4 v6 - 178K mi
2007 Prius - 217K mi

I do not understand the thinking of buying a $30K+ car and skimping on a $80 oil change

 

Do you own stock in Jiffy Lube? When did following the OM and Maintenance Guide become considered "skimping"?

"Steve Mazor, manager of American Automobile Association's Research Center, said that more-frequent-than-necessary oil changes will not "gain any additional life for your engine or any improved fuel economy." He added, "In reality it will make little or no difference to the performance of the vehicle."

 

0-16, 5-20, 5-30, all works in these Rav gas engines. TX summer, use 5-30, 20F below in N Dakota, use 0-16 or 0-20.
They had spec'd 0-16 even before 0-16 was certified in the US, hence why they allowed 0-20.

The oil is as good as UOA says it's good. Blackstone tests, is one way to know. Full synths can go 7kmi(min) in a Rav4. Change oil when needed, etc.

 

I agree warmer climate areas need higher viscosity for better protection. Toyota statement switch back in pinch is for fuel economy not engine protection and they also recommend higher viscosity under more extreme conditions in other words better protection. If you're an average driver in moderate climates 16 is fine for uber drivers in Florida summer use higher.

 

warmer climate areas need higher viscosity for better protection.

I don't understand why water cooling engine needs this? Cooling systems should keep engine at specific temperature regardless of ambient temperature.
Am I wrong?

 

Within limits that is true. To me the biggest variable is the temp during cold starts. That is when the engine is most vulnerable to wear. Pushing an engine past its normal operating temp when the ambient temperature is high can certainly be done but it's also fairly easy to avoid, IMO.

 

For warmer year round climates higher viscosity is a must. Toyota recommendation is based on moderate year round climates.

 

And what are the temperature parameters to be considered "warmer year round climates"?
My OM doesn't mention anything about that. Maybe the RAV4 owners where you live are provided with a different OM?

 

I live in perhaps the hottest metropolitan area in the United States (Las Vegas), and I have always used the lightest oils per the Toyota manual, first with a 2007 Yaris 0w-20, through 4 Prius (0w-20, 0w-16), and up to our new 2021 Rav4 Hybrid AWD Limited, doing 10,000-mile oil changes. And in that history, our cars never burned oil, never had a problem, so I am convinced that using 0w-16 in 118F+ hot week after week is more than fine.

What people forget is that fact that the cooling systems on our 2.5L motors are high-performance systems, so it does not matter if the ambient temperature is freezing, 70F, 80F, 90F, or 120F...0W-16 will provide the required engine protection so that you can get 300,000+ from your gas motor. So who cars what the ambient temperature is if our cooling system does a spectacular job?

What matters is the temperature INSIDE the engine, not the ambient. Embrace science!

 

The cooling system moderates engine temps, it does not pin it to one temp.
On a hot summer Las Vegas day, do 10mi of city driving and then take an oil temp and/or water temp. Then do the same on a chilly winter Las Vegas day.

The heavier oils have better properties for protecting against metal-metal contact.

Ambient temps do kinda matter, you can only cool the water down to ambient, no less. So when it's 110F in Las Vegas the water can only be as cold as 110F. In say chilly Fargo in summer, the water can go lower to 75F, or in some other mountain areas in summer, could be as low as 60F. When delta between ambient and operating temp is small, the cooling system needs more fan and/or more flow to try and remove Btu from the water to keep internals within a operating range.

Who has taken a 4.5gen 2.5L motor to 300kmi yet using only 0-16, in hot Las Vegas ?

 

The thermostat regulates, so it is less important if I am driving in 5F or 115F ambient temperatures.

Not many have 4.5 gens running the 2.5L motor using 0w-16 in Vegas? Thousands and thousands are with their Camry's, Rav4's, Venza's, other Toyota models too, but you don't hear of a pandemic of damaged, oil-burning engines here...that reputation does not exist here. All the toyota dealerships here (4 of them) recommend 0w-16 year round.

I'll go with the Toyota manual, their engineers, and science.

 

That's exactly right they have to meet mpg requirements, the engine will probably last one way or the other. If you notice they never talk about engine protection as it relates to 0w16 but you will hear fuel economy.

 

Why would Toyota care what your mpg is while you are running the heavier oil that you continue to baselessly promote? Toyota only needs to meet the EPA mpg requirements. Clearly there is more to it than just fuel efficiency.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to provide a fact-based explanation as to why Toyota reduces the oil change interval to 5,000 miles when using any weight other than 0-16. It's not because Toyota cares about what MPG I happen to be getting.

 

Found it - read this years ago:

The Skinny on OW-16 Oil

Coming soon to the USA; Poured in Japan Since the Late 1990s The new ILSAC specification for passenger car motor oils, GF-6, is expected to have a first license date of...

www.noln.net

JXTG Nippon Oil & Energy, makers of ENEOS oil, have been working with Japanese automakers to develop 0W-16 oils since the late 1990s. We caught up with a couple of their representatives — Hiroya Miyamoto, senior manager of OEM group, and Hiromi Takahashi, deputy general manager

....

"0W-16 showed higher fuel economy than 0W-20 engine oil. It will also give you remarkable quick engine starts at cold temperatures. There are several concerns [about 0W-16 oils] due to their lower viscosity, like increased wear, increased oil consumption and lower oil pressure. But our long history [with 0W-16] has addressed these concerns. The 0W- 16 project is just the beginning of what JXTG Nippon Oil is striving to do to offset carbon footprints. Actually, we are currently working on an 0W-8 oil. "

Read the entire article - become informed.

 

You argue against a strawman's claim, to save face, instead of admiting that you were mistaken.

I never said smaller tolerances came first, then light oil for improved MPG, and I never said MPG was not the #1 reason for going 0w-16.

Here is how it came down for Toyota and other carmakers:

1. Need to improve MPG across the fleet.
2. Do that with the lightest oils possible because they require less energy to circulate.
3. To use lightest oils, engines must have closer tolerances, otherwise lighter oils will significantly shorten engine life.

Toyota's Mission Accomplished:

• MPG is greatly improved.
• 0w-16 protects engines with closer tolerances without shortening the life of the engines.
• For most use-cases, drivers can safely change oil every 10,000 miles WITHOUT risk to engine life.

 

Gee! I thought I was the only one who gets embroiled in pissing contests on this forum.

 

The original post that burned my bonnet was the one below which wasn't even directed at me - where your fellow forum member blankly stated that anyone that disagreed with him was a knuckled dragging Neanderthal that can't think, read, or understand anything.

Sadly his hypothesis - either on the reason for low viscosity oil or on forum members - isn't based on fact, or even personal observations on his part. I have no idea where his ideas came from - since there essentially 0w-16 good, everything else bad. Any published information he refuses to accept.

Perhaps he is a paid Honda Troll - sent here to seed discontent amongst Toyota owners?

They conclude on their feelings, uninformed opinions, instead of deferring to scientists, engineers, UOA's (used oil analysis), and empirical statistics which prove otherwise.

 

Mobil1 AFE 0W-16 is a quality oil but I prefer Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic 0W-16; it runs significantly quieter. You can get it on Amazon or at NAPA.

 

Great...now we can have a debate about which brand of synthetic oil "runs" quietest.

 

There is another thread on this board about dealers being out of bulk 0w-16. Possibly they have no 0w-16 to put in it. There automated system puts the visosity required directly on the work order so its likely not just an error.

I would use it to get another free change at 5000 miles just because you can.

 

There is another thread on this board about dealers being out of bulk 0w-16. Possibly they have no 0w-16 to put in it. There automated system puts the visosity required directly on the work order so its likely not just an error.

I would use it to get another free change at 5000 miles just because you can.

What’s strange about this 0w16 shortage is that you can buy the Toyota 0w16 oil on Amazon,

 

I get posts deleted for thread drift so back on topic. Yesterday, I looked on the web for local stores and no one had Mobil 1 0W-16. Napa has a sales promotion (similar price to Walmart) so I assumed I could order some. Nope. However you could get curbside pickup at the store according to the website. Nope. I placed a curbside pickup order anyway wanting to lock into the price and they called me saying it would be available the next day which it was. Purchased 4 of the 5 qt. jugs. Later in the day I was able to order some form Walmart as well, should be here over the weekend. I honestly didn't think any would be available so I was hedging.

I don't know, I waited 2 weeks for a fridge, I couldn't order all Honda Parts for a CRV brake job and now I actually had to order my dog's food online and there was no 0w-16 Mobil 1 available at any retailer in the area. Hope I can stay ahead of these supply chain issues by planning ahead.

 

I work in medical industry, delivery times we are being given is first quarter 2022, crazy times ahead, if you see or need something today buy it if possible otherwise you might be in for a long wait. More things need to be manufactured in N America, we as consumers need to suck up that pricing otherwise one day our friends across the ocean might cut us off.

 

I ordered two cases of Amsoil 0-16 from their website and had it delivered in about a week.

 

The ignore button works extremely well for filtering out nonsense for those that aren't aware of it.

 

Good answer, if you don't know the difference either.

 

I'm a little late to the game here, but I have enjoyed reading the thread. I will be new to the 0W16 world and I'm kind of skeptical myself, but I will follow what the manual says in terms of what oil to use. Considering that this vehicle is a hybrid with an electric oil pump part of me wonders with the engine and battery working together, with the engine not running at times, i wonder if the thinner oil is need for when the engine kicks back on when needed? especially if its still cold. I also wonder if the manual tells you that you can use 0W20, but switch back to 0W16, because of the electric oil pump being designed for the 0W16. maybe prolong use of 0W20 will burn out the pump quicker.

I dont think you can use a higher viscosity than 0W20 and I dont know if id use 0W20 for a prolonged period for the same reason some people say they wouldnt use 0W16, "it will lsat you through the warranty period but not provide protection in the long run." basically saying you wont see problems until later on down the road. the same reasoning could be used for using 0W20 for a long period of time.

I guess if you wanna dump 0W20 in it right away you can, but i think toyota has a strong argument for not doing warranty work considering the manual tells you to switch back to the 16 oil. yes, it is contradictory saying you can use a higher viscosity for "higher speeds" or "differing weather conditions." it doesnt state what to use though nor does it state what "higher speeds" are. you could say highway speeds above 70? but toyota could argue that unless yours driving that 100% of the time you need to switch back to the 16 grade oil.

Either way, lets say 0W16 doesnt protect your engine that well and you need a new engine at 100k 200k miles. whats it cost to put a new engine in a rav4? 6k-8k? if that? that is still a lot cheaper than a new vehicle, especially if you have to pay interest. i guess if there was an issue or some kind of conspiracy by toyota to destroy your hinge with thinner oil to get you to buy a new vehicle i would think the best way to stick it to toyota is to not buy a new vehicle, but replace the engine, sell it, and buy something else. or keep it and drive another 100k.

use it, dont use it. it appears everyone agrees to some extent that oil technology has improved since you can do longer intervals and they protect better. i think its feasible to believe that lighter oils can benefit from the same technology and be used safely.

 

I'm a little late to the game here, but I have enjoyed reading the thread. I will be new to the 0W16 world and I'm kind of skeptical myself, but I will follow what the manual says in terms of what oil to use. Considering that this vehicle is a hybrid with an electric oil pump part of me wonders with the engine and battery working together, with the engine not running at times, i wonder if the thinner oil is need for when the engine kicks back on when needed? especially if its still cold. I also wonder if the manual tells you that you can use 0W20, but switch back to 0W16, because of the electric oil pump being designed for the 0W16. maybe prolong use of 0W20 will burn out the pump quicker.

I dont think you can use a higher viscosity than 0W20 and I dont know if id use 0W20 for a prolonged period for the same reason some people say they wouldnt use 0W16, "it will lsat you through the warranty period but not provide protection in the long run." basically saying you wont see problems until later on down the road. the same reasoning could be used for using 0W20 for a long period of time.

I guess if you wanna dump 0W20 in it right away you can, but i think toyota has a strong argument for not doing warranty work considering the manual tells you to switch back to the 16 oil. yes, it is contradictory saying you can use a higher viscosity for "higher speeds" or "differing weather conditions." it doesnt state what to use though nor does it state what "higher speeds" are. you could say highway speeds above 70? but toyota could argue that unless yours driving that 100% of the time you need to switch back to the 16 grade oil.

Either way, lets say 0W16 doesnt protect your engine that well and you need a new engine at 100k 200k miles. whats it cost to put a new engine in a rav4? 6k-8k? if that? that is still a lot cheaper than a new vehicle, especially if you have to pay interest. i guess if there was an issue or some kind of conspiracy by toyota to destroy your hinge with thinner oil to get you to buy a new vehicle i would think the best way to stick it to toyota is to not buy a new vehicle, but replace the engine, sell it, and buy something else. or keep it and drive another 100k.

use it, dont use it. it appears everyone agrees to some extent that oil technology has improved since you can do longer intervals and they protect better. i think its feasible to believe that lighter oils can benefit from the same technology and be used safely.

Here is a technical article on the Dynamic Force engine lubrication system and the new oil pump and electric oil pressure control valve controlled by the ECU. It is written by the Toyota engineers who designed it. The system and pump were designed and tested based on the expectation that 0W-16 would be used and the importance of the using thinner oil and lower PSI oil pressure in colder running hybrids which operate intermittently.

 

Hmm...interesting thread thus far. Not sure what's left to debate however, given that Toyota is very clear about their stance as spelled out in their own documentation.

In the US: "0W-16 is the best choice for good fuel economy and good starting in cold weather."
In Europe, Australia, etc.: "0W-16 is ... the best choice for good fuel economy and good starting in cold weather. If you use SAE 10W-30 or a higher viscosity engine oil and in extremely low temperatures, the engine may become difficult to start, so SAE 0W-16, 0W-20, 5W-20 or 5W-30 engine oil is recommended."

Same engine, same tolerances, same oil pump, etc. It's almost as if, CAFE standards aside, Toyota recommends using the most appropriate grade/viscosity for your particular driving conditions and/or use case. What a novel suggestion!

 

From the Pdf file about the oil pump - Over the past decades, the automotive industry has made significant efforts to improve engine fuel economy by reducing mechanical friction. Reducing friction under cold conditions is becoming more important in hybrid vehicle (HV) and plug-in hybrid vehicle (PHV) systems due to the lower oil temperatures of these systems, which results in higher friction loss. To help resolve this issue, a new internal gear fully variable discharge oil pump (F-VDOP) was developed. This new oil pump can control the oil pressure freely over a temperature range from -10°C to hot conditions. At 20°C, this pump lowers the minimum main gallery pressure to 100 kPa, thereby achieving a friction reduction effect of 1.4 Nm. The developed oil pump achieves a pressure response time constant of 0.17 seconds when changing the oil pressure from 120 kPa to 200 kPa at a temperature of 20°C and an engine speed of 1,600 rpm. Test results confirmed that the developed oil pump controlled the oil pressure with an undershoot of about 12%. The oil jets were also stopped from -10°C. The internal gear tooth profile was also improved and reduced the friction of the rotor by 34% compared to a conventional trochoidal tooth profile. This paper describes the details of the design of the new internal gear rotor, the structure of the new F-VDOP, the engine oil circuit, and the test results. This new oil pump improves fuel economy by 1.2% under the LA#4 cold test cycle.

As I understand it, in hybrid engines, the oil is cold, which is bad, and so that there is no increased wear, such oil is used. Another thing is when the temperature is high, what then to do?

 

As I understand it, in hybrid engines, the oil is cold, which is bad, and so that there is no increased wear, such oil is used. Another thing is when the temperature is high, what then to do?

You keep the same "winter" weight (in this case 0W) and increase the normal operating temperature viscosity; for that there are plenty of options readily available, all the way up to 0w-40.