[proximity1]

I suppose it is logical once you’ve pinned your colours to the mast on the half-electric hybrid future that a logical extension would be all electric versions. And that seems to be what Toyota are planning with an all electric Toyota RAV4 and an electric Lexus RX.

Which probably won’t come as too much of a surprise if you read here regularly. If you do you’ll already know that Toyota has been toying with Tesla lately, and even divvied up £35 million for a chunk of Tesla stock.

Perhaps more significantly Toyota also brought to the table their car plant in Fremont California, which used to make the Corolla and Tacoma. We were told it was perfect for Tesla to build the Model S. Which it probably is – in one small corner.
_____________________________________________________
Link Building

 

[SteVTEC]

The problem with the Tesla is the limited range and expensive plug-in power requirements. Any 100% electrical vehicle with no on-board power generation capability is going to need massive power requirements for recharging at home which is fine for a high-priced sports car that's driven only short ranges, but not for mainstream vehicles. I suspect if Toyota has any interest in Tesla it's for their drivetrain yes, but not for 100% electrical generator-less propulsion. I suspect they'd create a more Chevy Volt like setup which also uses 100% electrical propulsion but also with a small gas engine on-board for power generation. That eliminates the complicated and costly recharging issues with the Tesla and also extends range greatly. De-coupling the gas engine from the drivetrain allows it to run only when needed, and only in efficient states which is basically relatively high loads (spinning a large alternator for recharging) and low to medium RPMs. It's impossible to load directly coupled conventional drivetrain engines like this since they're only lightly loaded most of the time, which is where all the inefficiency comes from.

 

[JRP3]

Actually I can speak to recharging requirements as I drive a 1988 Fiero that I converted to all battery power. I could recharge my 12KWH pack from a 30 amp 240 volt dryer plug in less than 2 hours but my charger is limited to 20 amps so it takes around 3. Tesla's 53KWH pack would take about 8 hours. You can also use a 50 amp range plug or welder plug for even faster charging, or have a special 70 amp circuit for their high power charger. Since most of the time you are not discharging the entire pack, or even close to it, actual recharging time is much shorter. The Tesla Roadster will do about 240 miles on a charge, I don't call that limited at all.
Remember Toyota already built an all electric RAV4 years ago using NiMH batteries, and many of them are still on the road today with the original packs still going strong, and still bringing high prices when they show up on Ebay. I'll be interested to see what Toyota comes up with this time around.

 

[philrav4]

Here's some info about Tesla..................(click on the video, 2011 Tesla Roadster )

http://www.drivingtelevision.tv/?cid=873

 

[rav4two]

Actually I can speak to recharging requirements as I drive a 1988 Fiero that I converted to all battery power. I could recharge my 12KWH pack from a 30 amp 240 volt dryer plug in less than 2 hours but my charger is limited to 20 amps so it takes around 3. Tesla's 53KWH pack would take about 8 hours. You can also use a 50 amp range plug or welder plug for even faster charging, or have a special 70 amp circuit for their high power charger. Since most of the time you are not discharging the entire pack, or even close to it, actual recharging time is much shorter. The Tesla Roadster will do about 240 miles on a charge, I don't call that limited at all.

That is extremely limiting, and makes an all-electric vehicle practically impossible as the only vehicle for a person or family. After all, who would want to spend that kind of money on a vehicle and never be able to take a road trip? So, you'd have to have at least two vehicles, one being powered by gas or diesel and an all-electric vehicle. Definitely not going to hit younger adults who may be entering the workforce and can only afford one vehicle, and not ingraining the use requirements of an all-electric vehicle at the onset makes adoption much harder later.

 

[cpotoso]

That is extremely limiting, and makes an all-electric vehicle practically impossible as the only vehicle for a person or family. After all, who would want to spend that kind of money on a vehicle and never be able to take a road trip? So, you'd have to have at least two vehicles, one being powered by gas or diesel and an all-electric vehicle. Definitely not going to hit younger adults who may be entering the workforce and can only afford one vehicle, and not ingraining the use requirements of an all-electric vehicle at the onset makes adoption much harder later.

What is the % of driving that is actually over 40 miles for most people? Almost nothing. The day you actually want to go farther you can rent a gas car. Why isn't this most obvious?

 

[rav4two]

That is extremely limiting, and makes an all-electric vehicle practically impossible as the only vehicle for a person or family. After all, who would want to spend that kind of money on a vehicle and never be able to take a road trip? So, you'd have to have at least two vehicles, one being powered by gas or diesel and an all-electric vehicle. Definitely not going to hit younger adults who may be entering the workforce and can only afford one vehicle, and not ingraining the use requirements of an all-electric vehicle at the onset makes adoption much harder later.

What is the % of driving that is actually over 40 miles for most people? Almost nothing. The day you actually want to go farther you can rent a gas car. Why isn't this most obvious?

You have an AWD. Why? What is the percentage of your driving where you actually need AWD? Practically nothing. The vast majority of the time, you'll do fine with FWD, and can save weight, decrease mechanical complexity, and increase fuel economy. For those rare times when you do need AWD, you can rent a car with AWD. Why isn't that most obvious?

 

[JRP3]

That is extremely limiting, and makes an all-electric vehicle practically impossible as the only vehicle for a person or family. After all, who would want to spend that kind of money on a vehicle and never be able to take a road trip? So, you'd have to have at least two vehicles, one being powered by gas or diesel and an all-electric vehicle. Definitely not going to hit younger adults who may be entering the workforce and can only afford one vehicle, and not ingraining the use requirements of an all-electric vehicle at the onset makes adoption much harder later.

What is the % of driving that is actually over 40 miles for most people? Almost nothing. The day you actually want to go farther you can rent a gas car. Why isn't this most obvious?

You have an AWD. Why? What is the percentage of your driving where you actually need AWD? Practically nothing. The vast majority of the time, you'll do fine with FWD, and can save weight, decrease mechanical complexity, and increase fuel economy. For those rare times when you do need AWD, you can rent a car with AWD. Why isn't that most obvious?

The vast majority of vehicles are not AWD. Why isn't that most obvious

Fact is most households have more than one vehicle, and an EV would make an excellent second car, or an excellent first car for the millions of people who realize they don't actually need the ability to travel 100's of miles in a day. Fast recharging stations are being built that will allow fast recharging in about 15 minutes, the technology already exists, so longer distances will be possible in the future. An EV won't be for everyone, but for millions it's an excellent solution.

 

[rav4two]

That is extremely limiting, and makes an all-electric vehicle practically impossible as the only vehicle for a person or family. After all, who would want to spend that kind of money on a vehicle and never be able to take a road trip? So, you'd have to have at least two vehicles, one being powered by gas or diesel and an all-electric vehicle. Definitely not going to hit younger adults who may be entering the workforce and can only afford one vehicle, and not ingraining the use requirements of an all-electric vehicle at the onset makes adoption much harder later.

What is the % of driving that is actually over 40 miles for most people? Almost nothing. The day you actually want to go farther you can rent a gas car. Why isn't this most obvious?

You have an AWD. Why? What is the percentage of your driving where you actually need AWD? Practically nothing. The vast majority of the time, you'll do fine with FWD, and can save weight, decrease mechanical complexity, and increase fuel economy. For those rare times when you do need AWD, you can rent a car with AWD. Why isn't that most obvious?

The vast majority of vehicles are not AWD. Why isn't that most obvious

Fact is most households have more than one vehicle, and an EV would make an excellent second car, or an excellent first car for the millions of people who realize they don't actually need the ability to travel 100's of miles in a day. Fast recharging stations are being built that will allow fast recharging in about 15 minutes, the technology already exists, so longer distances will be possible in the future. An EV won't be for everyone, but for millions it's an excellent solution.

The problem is that the infrastructure doesn't exist today.

We are the target demographic for this type of vehicle. We can afford to buy this type of technology, and we have four cars in our household. I have twins who turned 17 years old last week, and they're both drivers, and each have their own vehicle. Each has also been on a road trip where they've driven hundreds of miles over a couple of days. We would never consider this type of vehicle for them, not now and not for the foreseeable future. But, you get them used to a few years of taking five minutes to put in enough chemical energy to run their vehicle for several hundred miles and any added inconvenience of having to find a fast charging station is going to be as hard to overcome for them as it is for my generation.

And no, renting a car for them won't work. They aren't legally able to rent a car for another eight years.

I understand that there has to be a start somewhere, and without enough early adopters, this will fizzle. I just feel that going straight to an EV-only vehicle is not the way to do it.

So, maybe when the technology and infrastructure is better in another ten years or so, an EV-only car will be a reasonable alternative, and my grandkids can consider an EV-only vehicle for their first car.

 

[JRP3]

Guess it all depends on your expectations, and your actual needs as opposed to your imagined needs. As a teenager I never went on hundred mile drives, never even considered it an option. I wouldn't consider it an option for my kids either, if I had any. Truth is almost no one "needs" to drive for hundreds of miles in a day, it's something we grew accustomed to because of the era of cheap fossil fuels. It's quite likely that time is ending. Regardless, an EV is not for everyone at this point, as I've said, but it can work for a large number of us. My home built conversion only has a 50 mile range yet it handles 99% of my needs. My RAV4 does the rest. I think the range issue is over blown in most cases but will probably be a non issue in a few years as batteries get better and cheaper.
Regarding the charging infrastructure, it's developing faster than you realize. The Blink network is planning to install 20,000 chargers.
Video:

http://www.ecotality.com/

 

[rav4two]

Guess it all depends on your expectations, and your actual needs as opposed to your imagined needs. As a teenager I never went on hundred mile drives, never even considered it an option. I wouldn't consider it an option for my kids either, if I had any. Truth is almost no one "needs" to drive for hundreds of miles in a day, it's something we grew accustomed to because of the era of cheap fossil fuels. It's quite likely that time is ending. Regardless, an EV is not for everyone at this point, as I've said, but it can work for a large number of us. My home built conversion only has a 50 mile range yet it handles 99% of my needs. My RAV4 does the rest. I think the range issue is over blown in most cases but will probably be a non issue in a few years as batteries get better and cheaper.
Regarding the charging infrastructure, it's developing faster than you realize. The Blink network is planning to install 20,000 chargers.
Video:

http://www.ecotality.com/

Your parenting style is, of course, your prerogative. For my kids, while definitely optional drives, they were ones that my wife and I endorsed wholeheartedly and not "imagined" needs. My son drove upwards of 200 miles one way to participate in tennis tournaments (his friends, with or without parents, also drove to these locations or carpooled with my son), and my daughter drove about 150 miles to visit a very close friend who had moved away. There were obviously other ways of getting to their destinations, none as convenient, as fast, nor as cheap overall. We encourage our children to be adventurous and mobile, and that lifestyle does not fit with an electric-only vehicle in our present-day world that does not have convenient supporting infrastructure.

To be real blunt about it, the target demographic for this vehicle has the ability to afford excesses of this sort. This demographic also has the behavior of buying something that will suit all of their needs rather than settling for something that may possibly just do, and tend to be pretty unforgiving when some purchased item causes a perceived unnecessary inconvenience. It is the snobbish side of human behavior and culture, but it also has to be taken into account in order to be successful in the marketplace.

In the case of the 4.4 Rav, all it would have taken would have been to add a small, 40HP gasoline or diesel engine of some sort. This engine wouldn't have to provide any direct propulsion at all. It would just have to charge the batteries when they get low. Without that, there are going to be many buyers who will bypass it for some other vehicle without these limitations.

 

[JRP3]

That's the Chevy Volt model, and that gas motor adds a lot of cost and complexity and takes away much of the simplicity of an EV. There are always compromises, even with gas vehicles, though we've become used to them. I find it inconvenient to stop at gas stations, to do oil changes, to fix exhaust problems, to try and pass emissions tests. I think there are a growing number of people willing to give up a bit of the perceived convenience of ICE vehicles for some of the real benefits of pure EV's, while willing to accept their limitations. You really are not the target market for an EV since range anxiety is high for you. For many others it's not.

 

[kalapodi]

I think there are a growing number of people willing to give up a bit of the perceived convenience of ICE vehicles for some of the real benefits of pure EV's, while willing to accept their limitations.

A small ICE acting exclusively as an electric generator is no big deal if it sits in the corner of the car. Anxiety is not the only issue, safety is a concern as well (not all people are patronising urbanites). Imagine a person that lives in a rural area returning home to charge, only to find that their kid is injured and needs to get to the hospital ASAP, while their wife/husband is away shopping in the family's ICE car. Sure, there are abulances for this kind of scenario, but they would take twice the time to get there and back.

I'm a huge fan of EVs but an emergency generator sitting in the corner of the car is quite simply a clever idea. Technically that's a hybrid, practically it's an EV that only switches on its ICE in an emergency. If it is rarely used, maintenance shouldn't be much of an issue (no transmission, driving belt wear issues, regular oil changes, etc). The extra range would be a nice convenience, though I suspect that people that drive large distances would probably go for a different kind of vehicle.

 

[JRP3]

Truth is the EMT's in the ambulance are very capable of treating the kid and are much less likely to get in an accident on the way. In any case, a generator powerful enough to power the car would not be that small and it would not sit in a corner. It still needs emission controls, cooling, and a fuel tank. A better idea, which has been done, is to have a tow behind generator trailer. That way it doesn't take up space in the vehicle or add weight to it. You just hook up to it if you need it, plus it provides emergency backup power for your house. Still, any generator that sits around unused most of the time, in or out of the car, may develop fuel problems. I can come up with scenarios where an ICE vehicle doesn't work too, sometimes they don't start, and people run out of gas in them every day. Frankly if your normal driving causes you to regularly drain your pack or close to it then you probably shouldn't have an EV. Get a Volt instead, which is a serial hybrid, as much as GM want's to pretend otherwise.

 

[CYCLE_MONKEY]

I would never own a pure electric, period. Too many real-world limitations. I have AWD, and use it all the time in the winters here. Probably, 25% of all usage. I have the V6, I use the difference between that and the I4 probably 75% or more of the time. Renting an AWD when we get a sudden snowfall during the night (assuming I could even GET there or get one) and/or renting a vehicle to get V6 power in the middle of a high-speed pass are not options.

If I got anything, it'd be something like a hybrid Prius dorkmobile for bopping around. But, I've got a sportbike that gets 45+mpg, is a LOT faster, and a LOT more fun if I want to save gas. Plus......who really wan't to be seen driving a Prius???????

 

[SteVTEC]

Truth is the EMT's in the ambulance are very capable of treating the kid and are much less likely to get in an accident on the way. In any case, a generator powerful enough to power the car would not be that small and it would not sit in a corner. It still needs emission controls, cooling, and a fuel tank. A better idea, which has been done, is to have a tow behind generator trailer. That way it doesn't take up space in the vehicle or add weight to it. You just hook up to it if you need it, plus it provides emergency backup power for your house. Still, any generator that sits around unused most of the time, in or out of the car, may develop fuel problems. I can come up with scenarios where an ICE vehicle doesn't work too, sometimes they don't start, and people run out of gas in them every day. Frankly if your normal driving causes you to regularly drain your pack or close to it then you probably shouldn't have an EV. Get a Volt instead, which is a serial hybrid, as much as GM want's to pretend otherwise.

Having to call an ambulance because your EV is out of juice and you can't get to the hospital is stupid. Not only that, but a lot of insurance plans don't even cover all or most of ambulance calls especially if the injury wasn't truly life threatening. Ambulance calls ain't cheap!

This is one of the many many many contingency situations that people originally rejected "pure" EVs for. I drive 12 miles to work and 12 miles back for 24 miles. I could drive an EV, right? Maybe, but no. That's on a good day. On a bad day I might have to drive all the way back, pickup my kid from daycare and run over to the doctor, drop them back off at daycare, drive back to work, and then all the way home again. That's 50+ miles and something that can happen every other week if not EVERY week during the flu season. What if I wanted to go out to lunch? Another 10 miles, 5 into town and 5 back out to work. Tow behind generator? Ok so it won't take up space or weight in the car when you don't need it, but it'll still take up space and weight that I don't have everywhere else. Having to stop for 15 minutes out of every hour to recharge EV batteries while on a road trip also doesn't sound all that appealing to me. 20,000 EV charging stations is nice, but it still takes 15 minutes at a bare minimum vs 5 minutes for gas, and there's like 120,000+ gas stations in the U.S.

Why not just put the generator right in the car? And that's precisely what GM has done. :lol:

Since the small ICE isn't required to drive the drivetrain directly, it can be loaded in such a way that it'll actually operate efficiently, and probably be pretty low maintenance and low emissions too. There's a reason EV vehicles never took off, and the reason is that FEW people would accept their range limitations. MOST have plenty of scenarios where they might need to drive a lot more than that in a single day between charges, and no you can't just rent something when you need more. Obviously the people saying these kinds of things don't have kids or a family to worry about. Just wait till my kids are older and I'm running them to piano lessons, swim lessons, soccer practice, ballet, friend's houses, etc. :wink:

A 4.4 RAV4 with a Volt like powertrain would be very appealing to me, but I'd have NO interest whatsoever in a purely EV one without an on-board generator. Too many scenarios in which I might need to drive more than a battery would get me in a single day, and I have a relatively short commute too.

 

[SteVTEC]

BTW I don't get all of this apparent hostility towards the Volt. It's an EV with an on-board generator which people like and will pay for, which is FAR different than a "hybrid" drivetrain. It's closer to an EV than what people call hybrid's today. I'm sensing some purist fanboy nonsense.

 

[rav4two]

You really are not the target market for an EV since range anxiety is high for you. For many others it's not.

A couple of things. First, it is not "range anxiety", it is "range >>LIMITATION<<".

Second, while you definitely target a need for any product, with the expense that a vehicle (typically the second most expensive thing people will ever buy in their lifetimes), you'd better be targeting a group of people who have the ability to pay for that type of vehicle, need multiple vehicles, and do a fair amount of in-city driving. That fits us exactly. To target college grads just starting out or people who live in-city but live paycheck to paycheck is dooming the vehicle to be a marketing failure.

 

[rav4two]

Truth is the EMT's in the ambulance are very capable of treating the kid and are much less likely to get in an accident on the way. In any case, a generator powerful enough to power the car would not be that small and it would not sit in a corner. It still needs emission controls, cooling, and a fuel tank. A better idea, which has been done, is to have a tow behind generator trailer. That way it doesn't take up space in the vehicle or add weight to it. You just hook up to it if you need it, plus it provides emergency backup power for your house. Still, any generator that sits around unused most of the time, in or out of the car, may develop fuel problems. I can come up with scenarios where an ICE vehicle doesn't work too, sometimes they don't start, and people run out of gas in them every day. Frankly if your normal driving causes you to regularly drain your pack or close to it then you probably shouldn't have an EV. Get a Volt instead, which is a serial hybrid, as much as GM want's to pretend otherwise.

Having to call an ambulance because your EV is out of juice and you can't get to the hospital is stupid. Not only that, but a lot of insurance plans don't even cover all or most of ambulance calls especially if the injury wasn't truly life threatening. Ambulance calls ain't cheap!

This is one of the many many many contingency situations that people originally rejected "pure" EVs for. I drive 12 miles to work and 12 miles back for 24 miles. I could drive an EV, right? Maybe, but no. That's on a good day. On a bad day I might have to drive all the way back, pickup my kid from daycare and run over to the doctor, drop them back off at daycare, drive back to work, and then all the way home again. That's 50+ miles and something that can happen every other week if not EVERY week during the flu season. What if I wanted to go out to lunch? Another 10 miles, 5 into town and 5 back out to work. Tow behind generator? Ok so it won't take up space or weight in the car when you don't need it, but it'll still take up space and weight that I don't have everywhere else. Having to stop for 15 minutes out of every hour to recharge EV batteries while on a road trip also doesn't sound all that appealing to me. 20,000 EV charging stations is nice, but it still takes 15 minutes at a bare minimum vs 5 minutes for gas, and there's like 120,000+ gas stations in the U.S.

Why not just put the generator right in the car? And that's precisely what GM has done. :lol:

Since the small ICE isn't required to drive the drivetrain directly, it can be loaded in such a way that it'll actually operate efficiently, and probably be pretty low maintenance and low emissions too. There's a reason EV vehicles never took off, and the reason is that FEW people would accept their range limitations. MOST have plenty of scenarios where they might need to drive a lot more than that in a single day between charges, and no you can't just rent something when you need more. Obviously the people saying these kinds of things don't have kids or a family to worry about. Just wait till my kids are older and I'm running them to piano lessons, swim lessons, soccer practice, ballet, friend's houses, etc. :wink:

A 4.4 RAV4 with a Volt like powertrain would be very appealing to me, but I'd have NO interest whatsoever in a purely EV one without an on-board generator. Too many scenarios in which I might need to drive more than a battery would get me in a single day, and I have a relatively short commute too.

My viewpoint exactly, said much better than I can say it!

 

[JRP3]

The only hostility I'm seeing is towards a full EV from people who obviously don't want one. Fine, don't buy one, but I guarantee there are thousands who will. Just about every major automaker seems to think the same since they all have plans to make one. The reason the Volt only has a 40 mile range is because the ICE components take up space and add weight that could be used for more batteries. The Volt is a hybrid by definition.