Toyota RAV4 Forums banner

1 - 20 of 90 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
227 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
There has been so much out on the financial side related to the above.

I am all for hybrid EVs as long as they do not require a power connection (120 VAC or 250 VAC as with some models today) to recharge the batteries. What does that buy you and how much would recharging cost you by having to plug them in today and in the future.

The other thing I am concerned with is how often the batteries would require replacement and what is the material cost, labor cost, and hazardous material disposal fees going to be.

Just replacing a standard lead acid battery has a HAZMAT disposal fee added when you have your mechanic replace the battery. Of course you may replace the battery yourself and dispose of the battery free and illegally for nothing if you know what I mean.

Also the Hybrids and EVs have electric motors and power electronics modules for charging the batteries so what will their life expectancy be and what will the cost be to replace those parts today and tomorrow.

Of course we may all be rich enough to trade the EV on a new one before all the warranties runout.

Personally, I like the way Toyota and a few other manufacturers designed the existing Hybrids without any requirement to plug into a power outlet and only requiring charging from the small 4 cylinder engines when on the highway, which may be where the real market ends up.

If I had to trade my 2019 RAV4 FWD Limited down the road, I would be looking at a RAV4 AWD Limited Hybrid for sure. I am getting 42 mpg on the highway right now and it is not a hybrid, but city is just OK. I go to work everyday and my overall has been averaging 31-34 mpg dependent on weekend city driving. Retiring next year so my HWY driving will go down as well as my mpg. When on vacation and only at home for a week, I averaged 28-32 mpg, but the weekly cost went down since I did not do a lot of driving miles either.

Obviously working folks and retiring folks would have different practices, experiences, and thoughts.

What do you all think?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
227 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Toyota has been making Hybrid vehicles for some time. I think it’s safe to say they have a pretty reliable hybrid system at this point. Any vehicle you buy could turn out to be a lemon. If you are reluctant to buy a car because of fear of a possible repair, you shouldn’t buy any car.
I love my hybrid RAV4. Maybe at 170,000 miles i’ll find out I need to replace the hybrid battery. I also might die tomorrow, who knows. In the meantime I’m going to continue enjoying my RAV4 and not worry about 7 years from now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Just not sure of the benefit of a plug in hybrid. Hybrids get best MPG in city where most will use a plug in hybrid so cost analysis doesn't seem to be in it's favor. I guess you get some environmental people thinking it is zero emissions when using plug in feature but most electric power comes from fossil fuels these days. Just transferring point of emissions. Thinking hybrid is really more complicated than a just plan electric vehicle since it has both gas and electric power plants. Electric cars require the electric capacity to charge that is equivalent to two clothes driers, two whole house AC units or an electric oven plus all burners on for eight hours. Ang they have yet to start charging a road tax on those vehicles which will add to the cost of operation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
336 Posts
There was a recent scientific study showing that an EV charged 100% by electricity generated by burning fossil fuel is more carbon-neutral than a comparable ICE-powered vehicle. This took everything into consideration including manufacturing and service life. Not gonna find the linky but it’s out there. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
There was a recent scientific study showing that an EV charged 100% by electricity generated by burning fossil fuel is more carbon-neutral than a comparable ICE-powered vehicle. This took everything into consideration including manufacturing and service life. Not gonna find the linky but it’s out there. :)
Interesting! Working in the power industry for 35 years I was always amazed that most power generation facilities are about 33 to 35% efficient and then there is power loss in transmission lines and transformers. I seem to have read that the new engine in the 2019 Rav4 is almost 40% efficient. I always thought that natural gas was the best way to go instead of electric.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
336 Posts
If you haven’t owned and lived with an EV for an extended period, you’re unlikely to “get” them. I rolled the dice on a 2017 e-Golf which I had for 18 months. It was a fantastically good daily driver for around-town. It did everything an EV needs to do just fine, except for the limited range and no AWD. To be conservative I had to think of it as being fine for any round trip within a 50 mile radius of home. Beyond 50 miles I needed a plan for recharging it somewhere else. Regardless of the limited range, it was very fun to drive and I never had a single problem with it. Zero.

I change cars often and nothing currently meets my real wants: An electric AWD crossover with high ground clearance and a range of at least 300 miles. The Hyundai Kona Electric comes close, but no AWD (yet). I settled on the RAV4h as a placeholder until what I really want exists.

The Tesla Model X doesn’t count due to its price tag and questionable serviceability.

But EVs are happening, like it or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
336 Posts
Natural gas = Fossil fuel. Just not happening. Where I live in Oregon the city is considering a high tax on natural gas to disincentivize consumers from using it! Crazy. Of course here most of our electricity is hydroelectric so that skews things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
362 Posts
Interesting! Working in the power industry for 35 years I was always amazed that most power generation facilities are about 33 to 35% efficient and then there is power loss in transmission lines and transformers. I seem to have read that the new engine in the 2019 Rav4 is almost 40% efficient. I always thought that natural gas was the best way to go instead of electric.
That's because you are looking at fossil fuel power plants. Solar/Wind farms still get the loss from transmission. Roof solar are much better as minimal need to transmit and reduce stress on the power lines. Industrial size Solar + Battery already cheaper than even natural gas peaker plants.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
336 Posts
I have no doubt a 100% electric RAV4 exists somewhere in Toyota’s skunkworks. Maybe even a couple test mules in the wild. Its market release is all about cost & demand.

I’m excited about Volkswagen’s upcoming ID.CROZZ AWD crossover EV. Possibly hitting the US in late 2020. Range to exceed 300 miles.

146900
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
That's because you are looking at fossil fuel power plants. Solar/Wind farms still get the loss from transmission. Roof solar are much better as minimal need to transmit and reduce stress on the power lines. Industrial size Solar + Battery already cheaper than even natural gas peaker plants.
It all depends on your climate, solar and wind in Ohio isn't very cost effective. Most installations without the tax credit is a 30 year payback. I hate to see all the fields and forests covered in solar panels.The energy density for solar and wind is very low compared to fossil fuel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
If you haven’t owned and lived with an EV for an extended period, you’re unlikely to “get” them. I rolled the dice on a 2017 e-Golf which I had for 18 months. It was a fantastically good daily driver for around-town. It did everything an EV needs to do just fine, except for the limited range and no AWD. To be conservative I had to think of it as being fine for any round trip within a 50 mile radius of home. Beyond 50 miles I needed a plan for recharging it somewhere else. Regardless of the limited range, it was very fun to drive and I never had a single problem with it. Zero.

I change cars often and nothing currently meets my real wants: An electric AWD crossover with high ground clearance and a range of at least 300 miles. The Hyundai Kona Electric comes close, but no AWD (yet). I settled on the RAV4h as a placeholder until what I really want exists.

The Tesla Model X doesn’t count due to its price tag and questionable serviceability.

But EVs are happening, like it or not.
I have attended a few classes on EV and am interested in owning one. During one class the instructor talked about a navigation display with all the charging stations on it. He called it a circle of death that would constantly get smaller the more you drove ith few and few charging stations as the circle got smaller and smaller. Sort of like a black border that got larger and larger until it got totally black. He talked about planning a trip over the Rockies that was only possible because he knew a service station with a welding outlet that could fast charge his car. He said that most EV drivers knew all the tow truck numbers to call.

Things have gotten better
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Yep, RAV4 Hybrid and a Bolt EV (238 EPA miles, 300+ actual) for me. RAV4 Hybrid minimally driven now because Bolt is just so awesome! :)
What's it cost to do a full charge on your Bolt EV and how long does it take. If you charge away from your house what is the cost? I guess you don't pay any road tax to maintain the roads you use yet but that will come based on your odometer reported annually to the state you live in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
362 Posts
Things have gotten better
Yep, go on plugshare.com and take a look in your area.

EV like the Nissan Leaf, select J1772 and CHAdeMO connectors. NEMA 14-50 if you have your own portable EVSE.
EVs like Chevy Bolt, select J1772 and CCS/SAE connectors. NEMA 14-50 if you have your own portable EVSE.
Tesla, select Tesla Super Charger, Tesla, J1772 (w/adapter). NEMA 14-50 if you have your own portable EVSE.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
362 Posts
What's it cost to do a full charge on your Bolt EV and how long does it take. If you charge away from your house what is the cost? I guess you don't pay any road tax to maintain the roads you use yet but that will come based on your odometer reported annually to the state you live in.
The battery is 60KWh and with my commute, probably fully cycle the battery 52 times a year (once a week). Going by 500 cycles, the battery should last a decade. With lower depth of discharge by plugging it every day or two in the garage, the battery would be about to do 2-4 times that, so 20-40 years. :)

The included OEM EVSE can charge at 120v 8a (about 1KW rate) or 120v 12a (about 1.4KW rate). I can also connect it to 240v outlet to get 240v 12a (2.8KW rate).

I can buy an after market EVSE and charge at 240v 32a (about 7.2KW rate). I added a 240v NEMA 14-50 receptacle in my garage since I do not have a 240v dryer outlet in my garage. So I can charge from 0% to 100% in about 10 hours.

1 KWh gets me 4-6 miles. This Tue-Fri, I averaged 5.7 miles per KWh.
1 KWh for me is 4-5 cents on Time of Use EV rate or 5-6 cents on Time of Use off peak.

My commute only uses 7-9KWh a day. Use of AC or heating would mean on the higher end. Heavy traffic - even stop and go traffic - would mean more on the lower end in energy usage.

It costs about $10 a month to my power bill. No road tax yet but state is looking into it. As long as it's reasonable, I would be glad to pay it.

BTW, I precondition the car while it is in my garage with doors closed and enjoy the creature comfort when we get in. No worry about carbon monoxide poisoning. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Looking beyond 10 years, Hydrogen powered EVs are likely to come to the fore. Also, in cities, most will not own cars but use autonomous on-demand transport (Uber without a driver).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
362 Posts
Looking beyond 10 years, Hydrogen powered EVs are likely to come to the fore. Also, in cities, most will not own cars but use autonomous on-demand transport (Uber without a driver).
Battery delivery vans and trucks are coming soon and battery semi's are right behind them. Hydrogen nowhere to be seen. Hydrogen is already dead. Still stuck on fueling stations... easier to just plug in at home every night and top up the battery. Plus, when power goes out, you have a 60-100KWh power source. Gasoline/hydrogen/etc, will depend on when the last time you fueled up. And if city power goes out, gas pumps don't work either.


Agreed on robot taxi, in a decade, should be no need to own a car in city and perhaps just 1 car in suburbs...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Battery Semi's are coming soon. Hydrogen nowhere to be seen. Hydrogen is already dead. Still stuck on fueling stations... easier to just plug in at home every night and top up the battery. Plus, when power goes out, you have a 60-100KWh power source. Gasoline/hydrogen/etc, will depend on when the last time you fueled up. And if city power goes out, gas pumps don't work either.

Agreed on robot taxi, in a decade, should be no need to own a car in city and perhaps just 1 car in suburbs...
Hydrogen buses operating in Australia. Toyota has released all IP on Hydrogen to all manufacturers. If successful, they will be EVs with hydrogen to replace the petrol engines.
 
1 - 20 of 90 Posts
Top