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NC '19 Rav4 Hybrid Limited, Entune 3.0, Adaptive Headlights, Advanced Technology Package
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I don’t have the same level of trust in a beta version of something like OpenPilot as I do for the factory system. I just don’t. I’m still reading about it though so I might change my mind. But I kind of doubt it.

George Hotz web page doesn’t inspire confidence:


If a moderator thinks I’m trolling, please call me out. I’m sharing my opinion, not intentionally trolling.

"Beta" is just another way of saying the developers are still actively working on it and extending its capabilities and maybe fixing some bugs so it is likely to change hopefully in only minor ways before final release. There may be bugs, certainly, but in 37 years of software development, maintenance and management I never met a perfect module let alone a perfect system. Now if he said "Alpha" ...that is an earlier and usually riskier stage.

Open Source is a holy grail to some people. It appeals to a limited few because they can see the source and change it if they want to. They can contribute bug fixes or new capability. Neither approach is inherently good or bad, it depends on the excellence of the people doing the job, the resources they attract or are given and the ethics of the organization. And the health (and or the continued employment) of the developer(s).

There are some extremely talented people contributing to open source development and maintenance.

But judge not on the "open" or "closed" label. In the end it is the fit to your needs/wants, the quality of the product, its cost and the viability of its future maintenance that should drive selection. We have seen open source abandoned and closed source the same. Every product has an EOL (end of life for development, end of life for support) and you should try to guess when it will be and in what state of usefulness it will be when that end comes.
 

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"Beta" is just another way of saying the developers are still actively working on it and extending its capabilities and maybe fixing some bugs so it is likely to change hopefully in only minor ways before final release.
"Final release" for software is a myth created by managers who need to ship the product to meet deadlines/client needs, for any developer software is going to be in indefinite "Beta" cycle
 

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I run OpenPilot on my 2020 RAV4 Hybrid.
Thank you for your feedback. That was exactly what I was looking for. Did you buy the harness for RAV4 2019 and use it on the Hybrid? I know their website says they support the Hybrid but on the car harness dropdown list on their shop I just see either the 2018 Hybrid or Rav4 2019 with no hybrid indication.

Also, I think OpenPilot only works when radar cruise control is engaged, is that correct? If I don't turn on radar cruise control, do I still have lane departure alert from the factory?
 

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Discussion Starter #44
The car performs well in stop and go without any annoying beeps or warnings.

The current release does not adjust speed for road curvature
Thanks so much for your review! I definitely still want it, in spite of the road curves - for stop and go traffic alone. Too bad it wasn't an option at purchase - folding a $1,000 add-on into the purchase price is a lot easier than buying it separately.

Too bad about the road curves - I saw it slowing down for curves on one of the YouTube videos, which looked pretty sweet, but they must have been reviewing a test version.

I think one place the Toyota system could do a lot better is in seriously heavy stop and go - it does great otherwise but I find I have to take over in stop and go traffic, so if I were commuting a lot more the OpenPilot would be a no brainer for health reasons alone - to keep the blood pressure down!
 

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if I were commuting a lot more the OpenPilot would be a no brainer for health reasons alone - to keep the blood pressure down!
I switched to commuting by bus to keep the blood pressure down and autonomous feature is much more advanced ;)

I might be willing to give OpenPilot a try at some point, but perhaps the price will come down in the future as technology improves.
 
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Thank you for your feedback. That was exactly what I was looking for. Did you buy the harness for RAV4 2019 and use it on the Hybrid? I know their website says they support the Hybrid but on the car harness dropdown list on their shop I just see either the 2018 Hybrid or Rav4 2019 with no hybrid indication.

Also, I think OpenPilot only works when radar cruise control is engaged, is that correct? If I don't turn on radar cruise control, do I still have lane departure alert from the factory?
I consulted with support before purchase. Essentially the harness for "Toyota" will work, there's no difference between the 2018 RAV4 Hybrid harness or the 2019/2020 RAV4 or RAV4 Hybrid harness. The differences are in the software. The 2019/2020 RAV4 has main OpenPilot support. The 2018, If I understand correctly, it cannot do stop and go without some modifications to the vehicle, so if it comes to a complete stop, you'll have to manually get it back up to speed before re-engaging - There are people that have modified their vehicles to do this, but it's at their own risk and requires special hardware.

I know that automatic emergency braking works as does the pre-collision system with OP installed. I'm really unsure of how the stock Lane Departure Warning works as I have OP enabled most of the time.

What I can tell you is that to install OP on the RAV4, you hook everything up, run through training, and then to engage it you press the button for Radar Cruise Control, and then click the set button to engage. To disengage, on stock open pilot, press the gas or the brake, or press the radar cruise control button.

To disable OP from all factory features, click the upper left corner of the screen and the settings menu comes up, from there you can click a slider to disable OP entirely and it will not interrupt any functionality in the car at all (in this case everything will function like stock as if the device is not installed.)
 

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Thanks so much for your review! I definitely still want it, in spite of the road curves - for stop and go traffic alone. Too bad it wasn't an option at purchase - folding a $1,000 add-on into the purchase price is a lot easier than buying it separately.

Too bad about the road curves - I saw it slowing down for curves on one of the YouTube videos, which looked pretty sweet, but they must have been reviewing a test version.

I think one place the Toyota system could do a lot better is in seriously heavy stop and go - it does great otherwise but I find I have to take over in stop and go traffic, so if I were commuting a lot more the OpenPilot would be a no brainer for health reasons alone - to keep the blood pressure down!
Regarding the road curvature, I believe stock OP will slow down based on steering angle, but there are other versions (forks) that I know of that are GPS aware (requires internet connection), and will slow down prior to providing steering input for the corner.

I will say that at first, running OP feels like teaching a new driver to drive. You're unsure of whether the car is really going to turn, brake, or accelerate, so you are watching it very closely. After a while you know where you can trust it and where you cannot. So as far as anxiety, I am not sure whether this will help you or work against you. I'm relatively low anxiety anyways, and the way OP drives is fine with me, but I could understand some people being nervous about having it drive.

As I said before, you should always keep your eyes on the road and be ready to take control.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
I will say that at first, running OP feels like teaching a new driver to drive. You're unsure of whether the car is really going to turn, brake, or accelerate, so you are watching it very closely.
As I said before, you should always keep your eyes on the road and be ready to take control.
Absolutely! I see OpenPilot as just an improvement to the systems already installed in my car. For careful, conscientious drivers, it seems to be an no-brainer, aside from the cost. As a percentage of the cost of the car, though, it is pretty small - and that's how I'll eventually justify making the investment!
 

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Discussion Starter #49
I switched to commuting by bus to keep the blood pressure down and autonomous feature is much more advanced ;)

I might be willing to give OpenPilot a try at some point, but perhaps the price will come down in the future as technology improves.
I was able to ride the commuter rail to my last job and it was SO much better than driving!
The price coming down in the future is my hope (if I don't buy it) and my fear (if I do)!
 

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I apologize for my earlier snarky comments. My inner geek really wants to try things like this. But I do approach safety and liability related vehicle mods with an abundance of caution. Just the grouchy old man in me I guess.
 

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Absolutely! I see OpenPilot as just an improvement to the systems already installed in my car. For careful, conscientious drivers, it seems to be an no-brainer, aside from the cost. As a percentage of the cost of the car, though, it is pretty small - and that's how I'll eventually justify making the investment!
This is far from a no-brainer.
Careful, conscientious drivers like me will likely just wait till Toyota (or someone else) makes a fully unified/tested/warranted system vs an add-on for this critical a system.
 

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This is far from a no-brainer.
Careful, conscientious drivers like me will likely just wait till Toyota (or someone else) makes a fully unified/tested/warranted system vs an add-on for this critical a system.
You may be waiting a long time. It will be awhile before Toyota’s assistance features reach the same level as Tesla’s or Open Pilot. Whether someone is driving with Auto Pilot engaged or any other system, people still can’t just blindly trust it. In interviews, both Tesla and Comma.ai have stated the same thing. If people choose to misuse these features, then that’s on them.

Over confidence with this stuff is never a good thing. I think that’s something everyone can agree on.
 

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One more thing I'll mention, the latest version of comma's hardware installs pretty cleanly. Cleanly like there will still be a small black box glued to the windshield (a device they call Panda, this is the black version, iterations are currently designated by color, previous versions were white panda and grey panda)

All of the old versions of the hardware are obsolete. So when you see videos of guys running OpenPilot and it looks like a mess of cables and wires, you should know that the latest install is very clean and nothing like the hardware from even 6 months ago this 2019.


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  1. This not just any minor little add-on. It’s a major safety concern and thus, deserves to be very heavily tested by a well-known and trusted testing organization.
  2. I'm not really interested in any system like this as long as I’m driving my loved ones around and don’t really need this particular “nanny assist” at this point.
  3. I don’t even trust Toyota’s LTA system so I’m sure not going to spend a grand on an independent system that’s supposed to work with Toyota’s system but with far less testing.
  4. IMO, it makes good sense to wait for a unified and thoroughly tested system.
  5. I’m also very curious about insurance issues.
  6. Some day, at some ripe old age, I may want/need a system but it’s gonna be a built-in and tested system.
 

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So what you said is you don't trust any system, not even Toyota's.

You probably don't trust Tesla's system.

Remember, no one is asking you to use or buy anything either. Obviously, you are not the target consumer for this technology.

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So what you said is you don't trust any system, not even Toyota's.

You probably don't trust Tesla's system.

Remember, no one is asking you to use or buy anything either. Obviously, you are not the target consumer for this technology.

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I might be some day but autopilot cars are just not there yet. I also do not want to meet people using these unproven systems out on the road.
What I said was I don’t trust Toyota’s LTA system (and have turned it off permanently) as the majority of users I’ve read on this forum have also reported.
 

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I might be some day but autopilot cars are just not there yet. I also do not want to meet people using these unproven systems out on the road.
You're entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to make your own choices in what you buy or don't buy and what you use or don't use. You're going to have to accept that people also have the right to make their own choices.

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You're entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to make your own choices in what you buy or don't buy and what you use or don't use. You're going to have to accept that people also have the right to make their own choices.

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Sure as long as you’re willing to back it up in a court of law when/if add-ons like this cause accidents. If you ask me, Federal laws need to be passed about what testing/certification a system like this should pass.
 

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Sure as long as you’re willing to back it up in a court of law when/if add-ons like this cause accidents. If you ask me, Federal laws need to be passed about what testing/certification a system like this should pass.
Knock on wood, OpenPilot has not been involved in any at fault accidents while it has been engaged. There have been incidents of vehicles striking OP enabled vehicles while stopped, like OP following behind a vehicle that over shoots the stop line at an intersection, and the vehicle in front reverse crashes into the OP vehicle.

Tesla has not been so lucky.

All systems state that the driver is responsible. It would also be the same as if you have Toyota LTA enabled and side swipe a vehicle. You can't claim that your driver assist system should have prevented the accident, it's your responsibility.

Nobody asked your opinion on what the laws should be, but feel free to take it somewhere where it will make a difference. The RAV4World forum probably isn't a great place to lobby for change, but you can always e-mail your congressman. I'm sure all of the major manufacturers are lobbying for support for their own driver assistance systems, so there is not likely to be any laws passed in your favor here.
 
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