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Just to be clear, there no confirmation that there is a bladder. One forum member was told by a Toyota tech at a dealership that there is a bladder. Another forum member was told by a Toyota phone rep that there is no bladder.

There has been lots of speculation on the forum of what the cause of the problem might be. The reality is that we just don't know.
 

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I recently filled up my tank with 15 miles DTE, this is the second fillup since my tank was replaced by the Toyota dealership. The first time I was able to get in 11.35 gallons from driving 25 miles below empty for the needle to be slightly past the full mark. This time, I filled up gas at 15 miles above the empty mark, and was able to get in 10.08 gallons (with an mpg of 36-37), it the needle this time is slightly below the full mark if not exactly on it. I can let it slide for now since it's a super hot day, showing 92 F outside. I'll take into account volume expansion for the approximate 0.3 gallon difference, but if my 2 fill ups are consistent my fuel gauge probably seems to be somewhere just under 10.5 gallons to run from full to the empty mark. So it seems to match what that Toyota rep stated to a previous poster that there is another 4 gallons after the empty mark.

I'm most concerned about the reports about the fixes having issues after a month or so after replacing the tank. I'm seriously hoping that this isn't the issue... I'm actually okay with my needle at least working and showing that my tank is full without auto shutting off super early (before they replaced my fuel tank it would auto stop at 3/4 tank). The last 2 fillups have been acceptable for me since I didnt have to top off or try to add more gas slowly, it shut off correctly and showed my fuel tank as full. I guess I'll just have to get used to the DTE estimates not being above 500 anymore and just remember that I still have about 3.5-4 gallons x (mpg) to get my miles left to drive. Still l, having 144 miles left after hitting empty seems like an excessive amount of reserve.
 

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Indeed, we don’t know for sure it’s a bladder. We do know the owners manual says the tank has a “special structure” and requires some kind of depressurization before refueling (pages 241-242). And that the behaviors observed here by ‘19 R4h owners seem very similar to owner experiences with the Prius bladder tank.

My money is now on a bladder. :(
 

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Discussion Starter #444
Just to be clear, there no confirmation that there is a bladder. One forum member was told by a Toyota tech at a dealership that there is a bladder. Another forum member was told by a Toyota phone rep that there is no bladder.

There has been lots of speculation on the forum of what the cause of the problem might be. The reality is that we just don't know.
Just to be clear, who cares? I’ve been told face to face by a Toyota engineer there is a bladder and a Toyota Corp caseworker that there is a bladder. Nobody has said it is or isn’t causing this problem.
 

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At 60+ years old. I’ve owned in the neighborhood of 30 cars, trucks, and SUVs. I doubt I could remember them all if I tried. Until this thread I had never heard of fuel bladders for cars. This is new to me.

We’re all just trying to figure this out and understand it.
 

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Discussion Starter #446
At 60+ years old. I’ve owned in the neighborhood of 30 cars, trucks, and SUVs. I doubt I could remember them all if I tried. Until this thread I had never heard of fuel bladders for cars. This is new to me.

We’re all just trying to figure this out and understand it.
Being well over 60, I too have owned well over 30 vehicles and my knowledge of bladders is ziltch. In the end, bladder or not doesn’t really matter as it needs to be fixed regardless.
What we think really doesn’t matter as only Toyota is going to fix this problem. While I really appreciate the research & documentation folks have done, I don’t think Toyota gives a rip about any of it. Unless and until everyone with this problem reports/makes a case with Toyota about this, nothing will ever happen. It may never happen anyway but it sure won’t if we don’t make lots of noise about it.
 

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Indeed, we don’t know for sure it’s a bladder. We do know the owners manual says the tank has a “special structure” and requires some kind of depressurization before refueling (pages 241-242). And that the behaviors observed here by ‘19 R4h owners seem very similar to owner experiences with the Prius bladder tank.

My money is now on a bladder. :(
I had a prius with a bladder, as I live in NH it wasn't a problem in the winter, true, a gallon or two wasn't available during cold weather but that wasn't an issue.
The issue was to let the tank breath for a few minutes before filling and to fill slowly, worked 100% of the time.
If this vehicle has a bladder, great if it doesn't great, it's Toyota, I'm not worried.
 

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Ok so i got back from business trip. Jumped in my XSE, looked at the invoice i shared with you all and immediately grew worried when i look at the DTE in the car. It was reporting 432mi but showing a full tank.

Everyone knows thats not close to a full tank. I thought hey maybe they didnt fill it up all the way. I drive to the gas station a notice the DTE drop rapidly. I fuel it up and click at .75. I try again and .75. Im not forcing any more gas in. I jump in and DTE is 474. Well we know thats not a full tank either.

I drive the car gor a few days (2) and notice the DTE plummet rapidly til it hits a 1/4 tank. Yeah i was losing about 10miles for every 20miles driven. Ive video recorded every trip.

The car finally hits Empty. I let it go til Refuel now approaches or 1mi to Empty. So i begin refuel. 10.5 and click. The guage is reading full, at 10.5. A little under 440mi DTE. I then drive around the gas station and pump til 11.3. Yeah i know ive got the issue still. I drive for 10mi and then pump another .8. I drive another 20miles and pump another .8.

So now i get to send all video evidence, and deal with Toyota NA and the service mgr where i bought the car whom i cant say i truat at this point since they were aupposed to conduct the replacement and fuel test but somehow didnt notice the issue. The case manager didnt seem to wven know the tank was 14.5 gal and how i could tell it was the same issue after the 1st pump.

At this point im tired of the headache on this last tank i was able to drive 454mi. If Toyota wants me to believe that was a Full Tank as the car was reporting then i was only getting about 30mi to a gallon. If it wasnt a full tank and only the 9-11gal i believe were in the car then something is still wrong with the car and why it would repirt a full tank missing 4gallons is concerning.

I love the car but now its more thsn an inconvenience and is effecting my ability to resale, enjoy or accept what i paid for the vehicle. Ill let you know what they say Monday. Ill probably post the video then as well. Send it to Kelly Blue Book who also had the issue with their test vehicle.
 

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Ok so i got back from business trip. Jumped in my XSE, looked at the invoice i shared with you all and immediately grew worried when i look at the DTE in the car. It was reporting 432mi but showing a full tank.

Everyone knows thats not close to a full tank. I thought hey maybe they didnt fill it up all the way. I drive to the gas station a notice the DTE drop rapidly. I fuel it up and click at .75. I try again and .75. Im not forcing any more gas in. I jump in and DTE is 474. Well we know thats not a full tank either.

I drive the car gor a few days (2) and notice the DTE plummet rapidly til it hits a 1/4 tank. Yeah i was losing about 10miles for every 20miles driven. Ive video recorded every trip.

The car finally hits Empty. I let it go til Refuel now approaches or 1mi to Empty. So i begin refuel. 10.5 and click. The guage is reading full, at 10.5. A little under 440mi DTE. I then drive around the gas station and pump til 11.3. Yeah i know ive got the issue still. I drive for 10mi and then pump another .8. I drive another 20miles and pump another .8.

So now i get to send all video evidence, and deal with Toyota NA and the service mgr where i bought the car whom i cant say i truat at this point since they were aupposed to conduct the replacement and fuel test but somehow didnt notice the issue. The case manager didnt seem to wven know the tank was 14.5 gal and how i could tell it was the same issue after the 1st pump.

At this point im tired of the headache on this last tank i was able to drive 454mi. If Toyota wants me to believe that was a Full Tank as the car was reporting then i was only getting about 30mi to a gallon. If it wasnt a full tank and only the 9-11gal i believe were in the car then something is still wrong with the car and why it would repirt a full tank missing 4gallons is concerning.

I love the car but now its more thsn an inconvenience and is effecting my ability to resale, enjoy or accept what i paid for the vehicle. Ill let you know what they say Monday. Ill probably post the video then as well. Send it to Kelly Blue Book who also had the issue with their test vehicle.
Toyota engineers told our forum member, they found there is still 4 gallons of gas left in the tank on Empty!!!

So your 10.5 gallon first fill is normal, for now...

After that, you are overfilling it....
 

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Ravvy, I'm not trying to argue with you. I've agreed with many of your previous posts.

However, I don't think your saying you need this fixed before winter accomplishes anything. Do you think they are withholding a fix and now will release it? Do you think they will work harder because of your demand?

I don't know whether they care a lot, a little or not at all. I don't know how hard they are working on the problem. But, at this point, short of pursuing the lemon law (which I am not about to do), the option that I choose is patience. I respect your right to choose otherwise.

Someone in Oregon did pursue it and got Toyota to buy back his Rav4 Hybrid at his purchase price. So, it can be done but do you want to go that route?
Why would you not want to go that route?

This issue will ultimately affect the cars reliability and resale value. If you are on the forum complaining about the issue recouping your money to make a better investment doesnt seem like the worst idea especially if the cR is not perfor.ing.
 

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Toyota engineers told our forum member, they found there is still 4 gallons of gas left in the tank on Empty!!!

So your 10.5 gallon first fill is normal, for now...

After that, you are overfilling it....
No its not normal. Let me be clear. If 10.5 was in the fuel tank with another 4 in reserve which i dont believe then why would i only get 454 mi out of my supposed full tank that only shows 474mi?

Btw i also talked to the engineer at Toyota Corporate, sent them videos, and local service department. Thats why my vehicle was 'repaired' they told me that the car has 2.2 gallons in it when the Fuel low light comes on. Less when the refuel now notices comes on. Which is why they keep asking me to drive til the guage says E. Their expectation is a 13gal fuel up at E from my talks with them.

So which person was right?

It would seem improbable that 4 gallons was in the tank at my 10.6 fill up if i was able to get another 2+ gallons in the tank or are we saying the tank capacity is 16 gallons now without it spilling out? Ive been working with them for 2 months and 4 visuts and over 10gb of video recordings to show there is no way 4 gal is left in the tank. No way you can overfill the vehicle by 2+ gallons or are you saying its burning off that much in a 10mi trip?

Keep in mind i gave you the ODO example to show you that my mileage range is less than DTE, therefore not getting advertised mpg.

Try this. Fill up your tank til click. Drive the 40mi and watch you be able to fill it the rest of the way after. Ive been able to pump a full tank but it requires the tank balancing out. You drive 20-40mi and it seems to do so allowing you to fuel the rest of the compartment. I have video of it and shared that with Toyota.

At least for my vehicle there is no way 4 gal is still in the car. I wouldnt believe anyone that said that either. It would point to whole other issues with Toyotas onboard systems and car computer if the vehicle wasnt registering 4 gals vs 2 or less, especially if the Empty and Refuel now indicators are coming on with 4 gals still registered in the car. Thats more than a fuel tank issue. Think about that objectively, that would be Toyota saying this issue is way larger than you thought.
 

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Could this be engineered like this on purpose so people have to refill their tank more often? Gas goes bad after about a month unless you add a stabilizer right... not trying to play conspiracy theory here...
 

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For the last time I am going to say a “low” DTE is still possible without there being nothing wrong with the tank or the fueling process. For example, if you have been doing a lot of highway at speeds well above 60-65 moh and/or hard accelerations you are likely to average only 33-35 mpg. With that and a capacity of about 12.5 gallons not counting reserve you will get a DTE of 12.5*35 =437.5. If you are getting 33, then DTE will be 412.5. For a tank size of 13.5 not counting reserve, this would be 472.5 and 445.5.

If you suddenly start doing a lot of city driving this DTE calculation trends up. When we buy the car, it seems to assume city driving giving around 41 mpg. That should give DTE of 41*12.5 = 512.5. If insead the tank capacity of considered 13 or 13.5 gallons with a smaller reserve, DTE is higher to about 553 miles.

Do I think there is some issue with the tank? Yes I do. But it is based on the needle not being equal or above F when filling normally. It is just below F for me losing about a gallon of space I should have got. However, DTE based arguments are worthless because those numbers can vary more than 100 miles even with a tank that has no issues because of driving differences.

I would appreciate arguments based on needle location so we know where everyone is consistently and can report on that pattern to dealers or toyota.

Apart from this, the car is awesome and I would buy it again as I assume the fuel thing will get foxed eventually.
 

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For the last time I am going to say a “low” DTE is still possible without there being nothing wrong with the tank or the fueling process. For example, if you have been doing a lot of highway at speeds well above 60-65 moh and/or hard accelerations you are likely to average only 33-35 mpg. With that and a capacity of about 12.5 gallons not counting reserve you will get a DTE of 12.5*35 =437.5. If you are getting 33, then DTE will be 412.5. For a tank size of 13.5 not counting reserve, this would be 472.5 and 445.5.

If you suddenly start doing a lot of city driving this DTE calculation trends up. When we buy the car, it seems to assume city driving giving around 41 mpg. That should give DTE of 41*12.5 = 512.5. If insead the tank capacity of considered 13 or 13.5 gallons with a smaller reserve, DTE is higher to about 553 miles.

Do I think there is some issue with the tank? Yes I do. But it is based on the needle not being equal or above F when filling normally. It is just below F for me losing about a gallon of space I should have got. However, DTE based arguments are worthless because those numbers can vary more than 100 miles even with a tank that has no issues because of driving differences.

I would appreciate arguments based on needle location so we know where everyone is consistently and can report on that pattern to dealers or toyota.

Apart from this, the car is awesome and I would buy it again as I assume the fuel thing will get foxed eventually.
Dude what part of ODO vs DTE vs Recorded Fuel Mileage did you not get?

If the needle is at full, DTE report 474 but ODO reports 454 how many miles per gallon do you calculate? While you do not care what DTE is Toyota uses it as a marker compared to your calculated mpg. Your DTE will flictuate depending on driving habits but it would reflect in your mpg.

Even in your desired outlook like i said at 454mi reading and needle at full that is about 30mpg on a reported full tank.

You can not rely solely on the needle as the needle is not accurate if it is showing full with 9.5 to 10.5 gallons in the tank. Your ODO vs your MPG should be an accurate reflection of your DTE giving you a graph outlook of your needle.

Thats why in my videos to Toyota i record all of those measurements along with trip mi and eco score.

Deal with an actual toyota engineer and rep so you can see what they are asking recorded versus what you want recorded.
 

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For example, if you have been doing a lot of highway at speeds well above 60-65 moh and/or hard accelerations you are likely to average only 33-35 mpg.
Ain’t no one in this car getting 33-35mpg simply by going highway speeds (unless it’s all/mostly up hill). I average 75mph, and I get 38-40mpg all day...
 

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Ain’t no one in this car getting 33-35mpg simply by going highway speeds (unless it’s all/mostly up hill). I average 75mph, and I get 38-40mpg all day...
I am getting only about 35 mpg as I am doing lomg commutes with 98% highway driving at 75-80 mph. That is not bad at all. My Prius gave only about 40 on the same roads.
 

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I am getting only about 35 mpg as I am doing lomg commutes with 98% highway driving at 75-80 mph. That is not bad at all. My Prius gave only about 40 on the same roads.
Then something is wrong with your car or your driving. I daily commute 70mi to work averaging 75-80mph. Richmond to Quantico and prior to my 'fix' i was getting 39.7mpg with an eco score of avg 90 or better. How are you only getting 35 on flat terrain when i have elevation as well in my commute?
 

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It could be because of two things. We have quite a bit of wind here in Kansas and it can blow opposite your direction. Second the roads are empty and there almost no use of the regen braking.

It is not the car as the Prius is about 40-42 only most of the time, same route.

Also the RAV is relatively new; it may break in a bit.l over time.
 

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Dude what part of ODO vs DTE vs Recorded Fuel Mileage did you not get?

If the needle is at full, DTE report 474 but ODO reports 454 how many miles per gallon do you calculate? While you do not care what DTE is Toyota uses it as a marker compared to your calculated mpg. Your DTE will flictuate depending on driving habits but it would reflect in your mpg.

Even in your desired outlook like i said at 454mi reading and needle at full that is about 30mpg on a reported full tank.

You can not rely solely on the needle as the needle is not accurate if it is showing full with 9.5 to 10.5 gallons in the tank. Your ODO vs your MPG should be an accurate reflection of your DTE giving you a graph outlook of your needle.

Thats why in my videos to Toyota i record all of those measurements along with trip mi and eco score.

Deal with an actual toyota engineer and rep so you can see what they are asking recorded versus what you want recorded.
Engineer and Rep will of course have different perspectives on this. I think like the former and would want to steer discussions that way if possible just like someone else may want it another way.

DTE is a software calculation for sure from mpgs you are getting. Needle should be more accurate and I assume from a tank sensor.

If you look through the thread, a lot of arguments are based on DTE. Not all, but many.
 
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