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It could be because of two things. We have quite a bit of wind here in Kansas and it can blow opposite your direction. Second the roads are empty and there almost no use of the regen braking.

It is not the car as the Prius is about 40-42 only most of the time, same route.

Also the RAV is relatively new; it may break in a bit.l over time.
That could be it. The wind even from the rzck reduced mileage
 

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Engineer and Rep will of course have different perspectives on this. I think like the former and would want to steer discussions that way if possible just like someone else may want it another way.

DTE is a software calculation for sure from mpgs you are getting. Needle should be more accurate and I assume from a tank sensor.

If you look through the thread, a lot of arguments are based on DTE. Not all, but many.
Yeah i do see that. Id be happy if my car read accurately and got appropriate mpg. Im just tired of having to record data for them every time i get in vehicle.
 

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At 70 MPH driving on the East Coast using cruise control I am averaging over 40 MPG. My overall average is 43 fuelly calculated. My dash says 43.2.

I just don't see how a short fueling can affect MPG. Miles to the next needed fueling, yes. But MPG is a function of terrain, weather and driving style. When I stop and how much I put in has nothing to do with MPG.

My location is rolling hills. My weather is moderate except many of the miles have been put on in the rain which reduces MPG. My driving style is moderate ECO and Auto HVAC but with A/C on probably 98% since I bought the car. Yes I'll do a pass at 75-80 but I don't keep trying to push against that air for long periods. I do not hypermile though I do try to anticipate slowing traffic and don't charge right up to a stop light.
 

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At 70 MPH driving on the East Coast using cruise control I am averaging over 40 MPG. My overall average is 43 fuelly calculated. My dash says 43.2.

I just don't see how a short fueling can affect MPG. Miles to the next needed fueling, yes. But MPG is a function of terrain, weather and driving style. When I stop and how much I put in has nothing to do with MPG.

My location is rolling hills. My weather is moderate except many of the miles have been put on in the rain which reduces MPG. My driving style is moderate ECO and Auto HVAC but with A/C on probably 98% since I bought the car. Yes I'll do a pass at 75-80 but I don't keep trying to push against that air for long periods. I do not hypermile though I do try to anticipate slowing traffic and don't charge right up to a stop light.
What i was getting at is the needle and DTE are wrong because of the short fueling.

You only gave 432mi, but the car says it was full. Well a full tank is 14.5. So if the needke read full Toyota would have to admit either the tank wasnt really full or the car wasnt getting the advertised mpg.

I finally got the car to a full tank today after having to drive let it balance then drive again. As long as the trip and ODO hold true. Still the fueling issue is there.

Ive gotten 40+mpg but that was driving 70mph. I dont really drive that slow.
 

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I'm on of the few who dont have the "issue"
But I have been saying for a long time, there is a huge RESERVE.

I have driven on "REFILL NOW" for 50 miles, below empty.
then put in 12.5 gallons.
So when i hit ZERO, or refill now, there is at least 3.5 gallons left...
4 gallons is way to much at "EMPTY"
WOW
I have ran the tank to zero and filled the tank till it overflowed once by accident and it only took 11 gallons with a DTE of about 470. For this vehicle’s specs I would have expected 13 gallons with a DTE of 550. I wonder if there is a way to get the fuel gauge recalibrated to reflect some of that missing 3.5 gallons. Is this possible? Has anyone tried to fix this problem with a third party mechanic?
 

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Filled up for the 2nd time. Didn't top off.

Needle ended up past F. Car reported 530 DTE.

Canadian assembled XLE. Seems to be working fine.
 

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DTE is an indicator of a problem just as the gauge is. What I find amazing is that nobody seems as shocked as I am about what the Toyo Corp caseworker told me. I’ve been of the opinion we’d definitely see a fix before these same tanks will be put into a new model year of Rav4 hybrids.
Repeating myself and also some others as well, but I can't agree. DTE is an adaptive system--it adjusts it's readings based on past driving experience. Unless you are driving the exact some places in exactly the same way on every tank, that's going to vary--at least until some time passes and the average driving experience gets worked out.

I get the concern, and it is mixed up in the tank fill issue I agree. But if what I reading indicates people think DTE should be consistent and fixed dependent on how many gallons are in the tank etc. they aren't understanding the system properly.
 

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Just to be clear, there no confirmation that there is a bladder. One forum member was told by a Toyota tech at a dealership that there is a bladder. Another forum member was told by a Toyota phone rep that there is no bladder.

There has been lots of speculation on the forum of what the cause of the problem might be. The reality is that we just don't know.
Both toyota customer care (she actually had to put me on old to go check) and our local service department manager said they definately do not install bladders anymore...learned their lesson I was told by the local guy.
 

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Engineer and Rep will of course have different perspectives on this. I think like the former and would want to steer discussions that way if possible just like someone else may want it another way.

DTE is a software calculation for sure from mpgs you are getting. Needle should be more accurate and I assume from a tank sensor.

If you look through the thread, a lot of arguments are based on DTE. Not all, but many.
And while DTE could be an indicator of a problem, it's not worth even going there--We need to pin a topic just on that issue to get people's attention away from focusing on DTE as an indicator of a problem--it's not consistent folks! Was not designed to be!
 

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MPG is also an issue to calculate using odometer if you cannot fill up tank to capacity. We will not keep trying to put in more gas after clicking off since no easy way to tell using California pumps when it may over fill and spill gas. So each time we fill up, no way to know if same amount of gas is in tank when it clicks off. Each fill up could be different. Is there still 2 gal to fill up or 3-4 after first click. No way to tell. So MPG using odometer cannot be 100% trusted (like using Fuelly app).
Our gauge never goes above Full mark (it can vary from just below Full to about 7/8 or just below).

DTE is also dependent on how car is driven and where and how much gas is in tank (whole other issue). Too many variables with current issues to trust.

Waiting now for 5k service to take back and see what dealer says.
 

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And while DTE could be an indicator of a problem, it's not worth even going there--We need to pin a topic just on that issue to get people's attention away from focusing on DTE as an indicator of a problem--it's not consistent folks! Was not designed to be!
I sort of feel like there is an echo chamber where people are just not listening to the bouncing off the walls. DTE is adaptive based on your current driving conditions and fuel levels not just your past. That is why its adaptive.

Pin this, its an indicator because it is a measurement of your MPG vs ODO and Fuel Levels the same as your Fuel Guage just in numeric value.

You can measure the volume of gas remaining in the tank based on the owners manual as a toyota engineer said there is supposed to be 2.2gal in the tank at Empty warning indicator.

You can also at a minimum measure how much fuel you have put into the tank based on pump numbers. The initial DTE after a fuel up is based on the estimated MPG at that time vs the fuel levels. So if you were able to successfully pump 10gal and that was in your tank at E on a 40mpg you should have at minimum a 400-440/60ish DTE.

Dont take my word for it i can show 2 months worth of videos shared with Toyota Engineers and service reps to confirm this.

The DTE will rapidly decrease if those fuel levels are not actually in the vehicle.

The worse part of what you are saying as i gave stated already is if what you are trying to say was true then their is a much larger problem with the vehicle than the fuel tank. What you are saying is the cars computer can not read or adjust for actual fuel and is not calculating actual DTE adaptively or MPG and can not tell the difference between fuel remaining vs fuel entered. That would be a bigger issue?

Are you working with a Toyota Engineer for your car and recording what they are asking for?
 

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“Pin this, its an indicator because it is a measurement of your MPG vs ODO and Fuel Levels the same as your Fuel Guage just in numeric value.”

Yes, but it does not know where and how you will be driving next. DTE is like predicting the stock market based on previous days and months data. Just will not be accurate.

It is a different thing if you are saying that DTE shows, say, 450, and them suddenly goes to 350 without barely a drive as it sensed that the amount of fuel in the tank is lesser than what it used for its first estimate.

This could indicate some sort of an air gap where estimate of fuel in the vehicle is off initially (leading to premature shut off) and then it corrects itself.

Even if this is the case, DTE arguments are still difficult to use because other things impact it.
 

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MPG for this days tank fill can be affected if you are basing the calculation on the amount of fuel that goes into the tank on this short fill and the number of miles driven but only if the last fill was a complete fill. So if you had a full tank, drove 500 miles and then, instead of 10 gallons you only filled with 8, your MPG would look 20% high. Because you really used 10 but only filled with 8. The next time if you drive 500 and again instead of 10 filled 8, you would be really using the 8 gallons and your calculation would look lower than your previous one. Over time, the 2 gallon difference assumes less and less importance compared to the hundreds of gallons you are really using and so the average MPG error for the long term is untrue by only a fraction of a percent.

Fuelly doesn't only work with a single filling. I have recorded all my fillings since I got the car and over time using the odometer as input and the number of gallons filled in many fill-ups the variability of the last fill up is smoothed out and my average stabilizes. I've seen swings of plus or minus 10 MPG for an individual fill up but the long term trend is remarkably consistent. Sometimes I deliberately short fill because I know that in a hundred miles gas will be 30 cents cheaper. Or it is raining here and I want just enough to get me home and I'll fill tomorrow when it is dry.

I can fill up to a half tank this time, a full tank next time and as long as I enter the amount of gas each time and the odometer reading one tank will show high, one low but the number of total gallons used and the total miles driven are what are used to calculate the average MPG and that is all that matters to me.

Even if the fuel shut off issue with my car was not there, there would still be some pump to pump variability and I've seen this in enough cars and fill ups to only look at my long term average.
 

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I worked with Toyota Customer Care. After several weeks, today I returned to my dealer for an appointment with a field tech. They confirmed the issue. The solution is to replace the entire gas tank. It sounds like they are doing a lot of these replacements, as now I am on the wait list for a replacement tank. They said 1 to 2 months. So the good news is they are acknowledging the problem and seem to have a fix (as I understand it, the long wait with Toyota Customer Care was for them to figure out how to fix the issue). The bad news is I have to wait for a gas tank.

If you are not getting a satisfactory response from your dealer, call Toyota Customer Care at 800-331-4331.
 

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.

You can also at a minimum measure how much fuel you have put into the tank based on pump numbers. The initial DTE after a fuel up is based on the estimated MPG at that time vs the fuel levels. So if you were able to successfully pump 10gal and that was in your tank at E on a 40mpg you should have at minimum a 400-440/60ish DTE.

Dont take my word for it i can show 2 months worth of videos shared with Toyota Engineers and service reps to confirm this.

The DTE will rapidly decrease if those fuel levels are not actually in the vehicle.

The worse part of what you are saying as i gave stated already is if what you are trying to say was true then their is a much larger problem with the vehicle than the fuel tank. What you are saying is the cars computer can not read or adjust for actual fuel and is not calculating actual DTE adaptively or MPG and can not tell the difference between fuel remaining vs fuel entered. That would be a bigger issue?

Are you working with a Toyota Engineer for your car and recording what they are asking for?
I agree that amount of fuelin in the tank is obviously part of the calculatiom assumed that was not a point of contention so may not have been clear on it.

Give you an example. I'd been getting 530+ MTE on the first few tanks. Next one we fill up and think we have it close to full--not knowing is a problem I agree. But MTE last time was more like 485.

Was that decrease from 530+ to 485 due to less fuel in the tank--possibly.

But it could also be due to the fact that during the previous tank much of it was driven in sport and normal modes. Every mile before that was in Eco mode. I'd guess more of the difference was due to that than fuel differences.

No one can tell for sure given the problem. But my point was when people see that variance in MTE after a fill, a great many of them here are using that number as proof that they have a tank issue an/or are even calling the MTE system defective.

From what I have been told by multiple Toyota service managers and customer service now it's adaptive in the sense that it uses your driving history and gas in the tank to estimate MTE. And even then it can change during your drive if you alter speeds from one steady state to much higher or lower one--I think--every other car for some years has done this I haven't checked it in our new Rav yet but have to assume it does that too.

I.e. of you are driving a freeway for 50 miles average 70 mph and drop to a two line where you drive another 50 miles at 55, somewhere during the drive change to 55 mph you will see your MTE estimation go up.
 

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I worked with Toyota Customer Care. After several weeks, today I returned to my dealer for an appointment with a field tech. They confirmed the issue. The solution is to replace the entire gas tank. It sounds like they are doing a lot of these replacements, as now I am on the wait list for a replacement tank. They said 1 to 2 months. So the good news is they are acknowledging the problem and seem to have a fix (as I understand it, the long wait with Toyota Customer Care was for them to figure out how to fix the issue). The bad news is I have to wait for a gas tank.

If you are not getting a satisfactory response from your dealer, call Toyota Customer Care at 800-331-4331.
I just had this 'fix' done. Guess what...it didnt fix anything still have the same issue with a replacement tank.
 

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I agree that amount of fuelin in the tank is obviously part of the calculatiom assumed that was not a point of contention so may not have been clear on it.

Give you an example. I'd been getting 530+ MTE on the first few tanks. Next one we fill up and think we have it close to full--not knowing is a problem I agree. But MTE last time was more like 485.

Was that decrease from 530+ to 485 due to less fuel in the tank--possibly.

But it could also be due to the fact that during the previous tank much of it was driven in sport and normal modes. Every mile before that was in Eco mode. I'd guess more of the difference was due to that than fuel differences.

No one can tell for sure given the problem. But my point was when people see that variance in MTE after a fill, a great many of them here are using that number as proof that they have a tank issue an/or are even calling the MTE system defective.

From what I have been told by multiple Toyota service managers and customer service now it's adaptive in the sense that it uses your driving history and gas in the tank to estimate MTE. And even then it can change during your drive if you alter speeds from one steady state to much higher or lower one--I think--every other car for some years has done this I haven't checked it in our new Rav yet but have to assume it does that too.

I.e. of you are driving a freeway for 50 miles average 70 mph and drop to a two line where you drive another 50 miles at 55, somewhere during the drive change to 55 mph you will see your MTE estimation go up.
I think we are talking 2 different usages of DTE. You are talking about the adaptive DTE which the computer uses performance furl consumption. The system rembers previous routes and tries to assist with mpg.

Im talking calculated DTE at refuel. The refuel issue is at the pump.

Example on my original tank i could only fuel 9.5 before the pump shutoff. The fuel guage would show 3/4 tank full and the DTE would calculate at 474.

We know there is 9.5 gal because we can see we just pumped 9.5 gal. The system estimated DTE at that point based on mpg and fuel levels. At the pump if you are Refueling when the system display says Refuel now you have less than 2.2gal of fuel per the owners manual. Fairly easy enough to calculate the DTE at the pump. Therr is nothing at that state that is adaptive. Its static and based on current mpg and fuel levels at the pump.

If you are refueling when the empty light comes on then you are at 2.2gal of fuel in the tank.

Either way if you are pumping gas at either level when the vehicle indicates to refuel and youvare short of 12gal then you have an issue. There is no if about that.

If you do not fuel up at least 12gal then there is something wrong with the tank.

If the refiel indicators come on and you have more than 2.2gal in the tank there is something wrong with the cars computer system.

I was on the phone again today with them because my replaced fuel tank is having the same issue. I do not know you otherwise id share the videos ive recorded for them to show you the DTE vs MPG vs Fuel Levels so you could see correlation. The only difference with my replacement tank is that now when i refuel and i am only able to pump 10gal the fuel guage will show full while the DTE shows 432 roughly. I blatantly asked them today on purpose which they wanted to confirm that 432 was a full tamk and i was getting 30mpg or that it wasnt and the fuel needle was incorrect. Like i said i have enough logs and videos to demonstrate the correlation.

Ots like how i know that 3/4 of a tank in my car roughly estimates to 335 DTE every time. The Fuel Guage is a correlation of DTE
 

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I just had this 'fix' done. Guess what...it didnt fix anything still have the same issue with a replacement tank.
This is why I am really waiting to see what fixes this issue. We had Fuel Sending Unit replaced, not sure we want to have gas tank replaced if not going to solve problem. Seems like they are still trying to figure out what is wrong and how to fix it. Not sure Toyota understands all the issues we are having......Thanks for the updates from your "fix" on having gas tank replaced.
 

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I have some more anecdotal information to add to the pool of, well, DTE and MPG-related anecdotes.

Today I drove from Eugene to Odell Lake and back to Eugene, via OR Hwy 58. The total distance traveled was 134.5 miles (odometer). The round-trip change in elevation was 450 feet to 5000 feet and back down to 450 feet.

I filled up the tank (or tried to) at the start. The gauge was reading just a hair above 1/2 before, and just a hair below F after. I got the attendant to slide the nozzle out about 1/2" from all the way in during the fill-up just to see if that made any difference. It didn't. Right before the nozzle shut off you could hear fuel "gurgling". He gave it one more squeeze and clearly it didn't want to take any more fuel.

Fuel pumped: 4.709 gallons (logically should have been more like 6.0)
Tank Average MPG according to the car: 41.8
Tank Average MPG calculated using Fuelly: 42.0
Displayed DTE after this refuel: 460

Drove the trip, up and back. I was on cruise most of the time doing 55-60.

As expected, going from 450 feet elevation to 5000 feet, the car's displayed MPG tank average was lower than normal. It said 36.1 (which is surprisingly good considering how hard the ICE was working).

After the complete round trip up and back, the car's displayed tank average is 43.8 MPG. This is fantastically good.

Now here's the fun part with DTE. When I started the return trip, going from 5000 feet to 1000 feet in less than 30 miles (a lot of it is 6% downhill grade with multiple truck runaway ramps), the displayed DTE never rose. It was stuck at 363 for many miles. Meanwhile the tank average MPG was climbing very quickly. But for the entire trip back, DTE never went higher. Only lower, albeit at a slower rate than usual when driving downhill.

I tells ya, that DTE number is not reliable.
 

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Had the 5000 mile service today.
Talked with SA, he knew nothing about fuel issues.
Talked with the Tech after vehicle pickup, he has heard about it.
Said, very un-likely the tank is a bladder design ( We have learned our lesson with That !!! )

Told him fuel sensors were replaced and calibrated, gas tanks replaced and calibrated...
He said "sounds like SOFTWARE "
"Toyota is really good at fixing these things, but SW will take awhile, Due to testing/validation needed "

Oh wow...
 
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