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I’m sure to those who don’t have this issue, it’s meaningless. I guess Toyota saying it has a 600 mile range when in reality is less than 500 (or even 450) is meaningless. Having to fill the tank twice as often is also meaningless. Some folks are of the opinion this subject has been beat to death and there’s nothing left to say. I totally disagree.
No, no.

This condition has the ingredients for a Class Action Lawsuit.
 

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Is this only a issue for the US Canadian cars? Has anyone outside these areas had an issue? Australia, New Zealand anywhere else?
 

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I didn't really notice this issue initially but after a 3,000 mile round trip I began to notice it because of fueling more often. This past Saturday I filled up and had to force an additional 1.5 gallons. Gauge was past full but mileage to empty was around 430 miles. Initially when I got the vehicle it would say between 525 to 540 miles to empty. This is just recently that gauge says full and less than 500 miles to empty.
 

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Okay, let's put our thinking caps on an do some actual analysis. If this was covered in the old thousand-post thread you may skip my thoughts here.
This is based on how my '18 Accord functions but it's likely Toyota and other brands use similar systems.
1. The car has no way of measuring how much gas is being added during a fillup but it does know it's being added since the float is going up rapidly. It may even get a clue from the filler door being opened.
2. Adding gas resets the DTE. On my Accord it's called Range and the B trip meter automatically gets reset.
3. DTE is initially set (and continually adjusted as you drive) by the float level which is reflected on the gas gauge.
4. In these difficult filling cases the float and gauge are very likely correct when they don't read full. Therefore replacing the float makes no change.
5. The tank not getting full results in an accurate but low DTE.
6. All fuel tanks are designed with an air gap expansion area at the top that can't be filled making it impossible to "overfill" a tank. Proper venting allows filling up to that area but If the system is restricted even less gas can be put in regardless of how much wait time in employed.
7. Since we can assume that all tanks are the same size and none are collapsed the only difference I can think of between one that won't fill and other "normal" ones is a problem in the venting system, a plugged or crimped vent hose or a defective tank.
8. I wonder if anyone will ever get to the root cause.
 

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LE - J VIN: I just filled my tank yesterday for the first time (my wife did the first 2 fill ups) and my RAV has “the issue”.

I wasn’t near empty but the pump shut off very quickly and sure enough, I was able to put 3 more gallons in. Towards the end I was letting it trickle in and I could see gas in the filler hose (yikes). The gas then went down and I was able to get in more. When done the car said 530 miles to empty, which if there’s 2 gallons in reserve, gets you to 600.

Now having experienced it first hand, it seems to me like the problem could just be the filler hose or tank opening having an internal diameter than simply can’t handle the fluid and venting at the same time. It behaves just like filling containers with a funnel.


Maybe Toyota will move on the issue when some dumbass like me incinerates himself?
 

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I wasn’t near empty but the pump shut off very quickly and sure enough, I was able to put 3 more gallons in. Towards the end I was letting it trickle in and I could see gas in the filler hose (yikes). The gas then went down and I was able to get in more.
I had the same experiences after the first auto click-off in the past few refuels. It really did behave like filling containers with a funnel. If the flow rate is not controlled carefully, gas would easily overflow out of the car.
 

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Okay, let's put our thinking caps on an do some actual analysis. If this was covered in the old thousand-post thread you may skip my thoughts here.
This is based on how my '18 Accord functions but it's likely Toyota and other brands use similar systems.
1. The car has no way of measuring how much gas is being added during a fillup but it does know it's being added since the float is going up rapidly. It may even get a clue from the filler door being opened.
2. Adding gas resets the DTE. On my Accord it's called Range and the B trip meter automatically gets reset.
3. DTE is initially set (and continually adjusted as you drive) by the float level which is reflected on the gas gauge.
4. In these difficult filling cases the float and gauge are very likely correct when they don't read full. Therefore replacing the float makes no change.
5. The tank not getting full results in an accurate but low DTE.
6. All fuel tanks are designed with an air gap expansion area at the top that can't be filled making it impossible to "overfill" a tank. Proper venting allows filling up to that area but If the system is restricted even less gas can be put in regardless of how much wait time in employed.
7. Since we can assume that all tanks are the same size and none are collapsed the only difference I can think of between one that won't fill and other "normal" ones is a problem in the venting system, a plugged or crimped vent hose or a defective tank.
8. I wonder if anyone will ever get to the root cause.
It seems to me that you're missing the most salient point derived from previous discussions: the role of the bladder. The most accurate appearing contrubutions indicated that, even after a hiatus of using a bladder within the gas tank, Toyota has again implemented it in the 2019 Rav4 Hybrid. These bladders have a history, when used previously in the Prius, of causing fill-up issues much like that being experienced by current Rav4 owners although many issues back then were related to temperature differences affecting the functional capacity.

The puropse of these bladders, and the reason they are used in the hybrid exclusively of the gas model, is that by eliminating air space around the "pocket" of gas in the tank, they reduce evaporation and contribute to a better emmision rating.

It's not difficult, for me at least, to see how folds and irregularities in these bladders could easily explain the pump thinking the tank is full several gallons shy of capacity. It's also a simple extrapolation to visualize how this might affect individual cars to varying degrees.
 

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It seems to me that you're missing the most salient point derived from previous discussions: the role of the bladder. The most accurate appearing contrubutions indicated that, even after a hiatus of using a bladder within the gas tank, Toyota has again implemented it in the 2019 Rav4 Hybrid. These bladders have a history, when used previously in the Prius, of causing fill-up issues much like that being experienced by current Rav4 owners although many issues back then were related to temperature differences affecting the functional capacity.

The puropse of these bladders, and the reason they are used in the hybrid exclusively of the gas model, is that by eliminating air space around the "pocket" of gas in the tank, they reduce evaporation and contribute to a better emmision rating.

It's not difficult, for me at least, to see how folds and irregularities in these bladders could easily explain the pump thinking the tank is full several gallons shy of capacity. It's also a simple extrapolation to visualize how this might affect individual cars to varying degrees.
Bravo!

In ALL seriousness.

Well done!
 

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It seems to me that you're missing the most salient point derived from previous discussions: the role of the bladder. The most accurate appearing contrubutions indicated that, even after a hiatus of using a bladder within the gas tank, Toyota has again implemented it in the 2019 Rav4 Hybrid. These bladders have a history, when used previously in the Prius, of causing fill-up issues much like that being experienced by current Rav4 owners although many issues back then were related to temperature differences affecting the functional capacity.

The puropse of these bladders, and the reason they are used in the hybrid exclusively of the gas model, is that by eliminating air space around the "pocket" of gas in the tank, they reduce evaporation and contribute to a better emmision rating.

It's not difficult, for me at least, to see how folds and irregularities in these bladders could easily explain the pump thinking the tank is full several gallons shy of capacity. It's also a simple extrapolation to visualize how this might affect individual cars to varying degrees.
If the bladder is the problem, why do you think certain 2019 RAV4 Hybrids (for US/Canada market) don't appear to be experiencing the same problem? I think the bladder offers a good explanation of the issue, just wondering why it wouldn't affect all similar spec vehicles (assuming all Hybrids in North America have same bladder in fuel tank design).

Related to this, if the bladder design prevents proper fueling of the Hybrid vehicles, are there grounds for legal action against Toyota for advertising a 600-mile driving range? We all know the fuel pumps themselves vary in sensitivity for auto-shut off, but being shy 2 gallons of gas at every fill up is not normal.
 

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If the bladder is the problem, why do you think certain 2019 RAV4 Hybrids (for US/Canada market) don't appear to be experiencing the same problem? I think the bladder offers a good explanation of the issue, just wondering why it wouldn't affect all similar spec vehicles (assuming all Hybrids in North America have same bladder in fuel tank design).
I haven't seen one in person but I picture this bladder as a flexible, heavy-duty bag. As such, it would seem subject to folding/crinkling/deforming in a multitude of ways. Perhaps initial installation determines the propensity for how idiosyncratic these deformation might be relative to allowing the influx of gas to maximally expand the bladder. I have seen pictures of the bladder from the 2010, or so, Prius and know that it's far more rigid than a, say, sandwich bag. But still, it's designed to expand and contract with gas volume and there would seem to be some latitude for variability as it does so.

I also suspect this is made more complex by valves or some other mechanism that prevents the bladder from loading up with air when you pop the cap or fill. Perhaps these ancillary mechanisms are implicated as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #53 (Edited)
Okay, let's put our thinking caps on an do some actual analysis. If this was covered in the old thousand-post thread you may skip my thoughts here.
This is based on how my '18 Accord functions but it's likely Toyota and other brands use similar systems.
1. The car has no way of measuring how much gas is being added during a fillup but it does know it's being added since the float is going up rapidly. It may even get a clue from the filler door being opened.
2. Adding gas resets the DTE. On my Accord it's called Range and the B trip meter automatically gets reset.
3. DTE is initially set (and continually adjusted as you drive) by the float level which is reflected on the gas gauge.
4. In these difficult filling cases the float and gauge are very likely correct when they don't read full. Therefore replacing the float makes no change.
5. The tank not getting full results in an accurate but low DTE.
6. All fuel tanks are designed with an air gap expansion area at the top that can't be filled making it impossible to "overfill" a tank. Proper venting allows filling up to that area but If the system is restricted even less gas can be put in regardless of how much wait time in employed.
7. Since we can assume that all tanks are the same size and none are collapsed the only difference I can think of between one that won't fill and other "normal" ones is a problem in the venting system, a plugged or crimped vent hose or a defective tank.
8. I wonder if anyone will ever get to the root cause.
It certainly has a clue/knows because it actually signals “ready to refuel” on the dash after you remove the cap.
The clue I get every time is that, even when filling more slowly with the first notch on the pump, the pump shuts off well short of full. There is an audible/visual turbulence as though gas is going to come out which shuts off the pump. Looking at the gauge at that point can show as little as 3/4 tank. Further efforts to add gas, even very slowly, causes same turbulence and very quick shutoff of the pump. Waiting even 10 seconds between attempts still results in very quick shutoffs. Yesterday I did this 6 times and got just a hair over full. DTE way under 500.
I’m still in the very narrow fill tube + some other design or manufacturing/assembly flaw mostly because of the very quick and surprising amount of turbulence. I also wonder if we’ll get to the root cause. I’d certainly be interested in them just replacing my whole gas tank/filler tube structure to see it solved it. Before it gets to -20 degrees F preferably.
 

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Related to this, if the bladder design prevents proper fueling of the Hybrid vehicles, are there grounds for legal action against Toyota for advertising a 600-mile driving range? We all know the fuel pumps themselves vary in sensitivity for auto-shut off, but being shy 2 gallons of gas at every fill up is not normal.
This is just my personal opinion but I prefer to give Toyota a chance here. This would appear to be an engineering problem of the worse kind in that it doesn't appear to affect every vehicle. That said, it does appear repeatable with a particular vehicle although with possible variation as a function of the pump so that offers some traction toward a solution. It does also appear to be made more odious by the way some folks have been treated by dealers but we shouldn't conflate that with corporate.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
This is just my personal opinion but I prefer to give Toyota a chance here. This would appear to be an engineering problem of the worse kind in that it doesn't appear to affect every vehicle. That said, it does appear repeatable with a particular vehicle although with possible variation as a function of the pump so that offers some traction toward a solution. It does also appear to be made more odious by the way some folks have been treated by dealers but we shouldn't conflate that with corporate.
Toyota has had several chances. First when they designed/tested these systems and its going on at least 3 months since I and others started reporting it to Toyota Corp/dealer service departments. I expect them to solve it and soon cuz winters acomin’!
 

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The gas and HV tanks have different part numbers, the HV tank only costs $80 more, I would expect a bladder tank to be considerably more costly.


 

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As I said I hadn't read all previous threads so this bladder is new to me. Sure does sound like a wild card.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
The gas and HV tanks have different part numbers, the HV tank only costs $80 more, I would expect a bladder tank to be considerably more costly.


Something not right as those two tank graphics are identical. These shown below are two very different tanks.
144778

Gas
144779

Hybrid
 

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Discussion Starter #59
As I said I hadn't read all previous threads so this bladder is new to me. Sure does sound like a wild card.
Yeah the system could have a number of wild cards. The 2009 Prius had a bladder tank and showed a LOT of the very same symptoms. Toyota ended up not doing anything to fix it and then just deleted it from the design. I posted an article about it in the closed thread. Here’s the link.
 

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The gas and HV tanks have different part numbers, the HV tank only costs $80 more, I would expect a bladder tank to be considerably more costly.
Appologies here. I hope I didn't mispeak about the likelihood of a bladder. I thought this was more in the realm of the "known" but Quickdoo is usually well researched on facts. That he isn't convinced gives me room to doubt that it's anywhere near a done deal. Threads with over a thousand posts are probably no place for lightweights like me to be claiming to glean facts.

That said, the possibility of a bladder makes an explaination ten times more easier in my reasoning.
 
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