[karrock]

Let's give Toyota a wakeup call!!!

Everyone knows that hybrids get better gas mileage than a plain-Jane gas engine, but cost a little more due to the technology and component costs. So in the meantime, maybe a diesel is finally a viable choice of powertrains in the US for consumers, since they're not the noisy, smoky machines of yesteryear.

 

[garfieldgurl]

Bring that diesel Rav to North America damn it! :twisted:

 

[pablo35]

Actually, a RAV 4 hybrid would most likely cost quite a bit more than a regular one. The value of a hybrid would depend on the initial cost of the vehicle and the gas mileage savings you'd get over time. Keep in mind we're not talking Prius here. Consumer Reports reviewed the Lexus 400H hybrid (V6) and calculated that you'd have to own the car nearly 10 years to break even since the hybrid version was only 5 MPG better than the regular version (the car cost about $5K more).

Of course we're talking Lexus here; still, Toyota would have to engineer and market a hybrid RAV so it gets much better mileage without overpricing it and losing its intended market.

 

[SmellyTofu]

As pablo said, you'll need to own the car for a long time before it's a financial benefit. In 2005, hybrid technology is still very expensive to develop & improve on the next model to keep ahead of the competition. Maybe in 20 years time, the price of hybrids will be as cheap as a convential high performance engine.

Btw, diesel technology has caught up to petrol engines at an alarming rate so the days of sooty exhaust have been long gone. Unfortunately perceptions die hard...

 

[Omega Man]

Why not a combinatrion of both? A hybrid /Diesel could take advantage of the electric power in the part of the powerband that the deisel is inefficient/makes most pollution.

 

[TOY]

well most people buy hybrid to save the planet not to save on gas.

 

[sibbo]

It's going to hurt the planet in 10 years when all these toxic hybrid batteries need to be disposed of. I would rather see the effort go into technology such as hondas negative emissions engine, and if they can give us 100 more horsepower, in a bigger vehicle, with very similar fuel economy(new Rav4), imagine if fuel economy was the highest priority what could be accomplished. I am absolutely for the idea of hybrids, but I worry that they are becoming such a trendy item that people will become disallusioned about the benefits. A hybrid Hummer might give an owner a clear concience, but it would still be less friendly to the environment for one person driving around in it than say, a Yaris. I heard on television that an certain celebrity thought the prius was wonderful, and he was such an environmentalist, he had 5 of them, five freakin priuses, part helping the environment is to slow down the mass comsumption. Toyota is selling clean conciences as much as clean air.

 

[nouse4aname]

Absolutely agree with this bit on hybrids.

I don't understand hybrid cars. If fuel efficiency were truly a goal of their design, why wouldn't the electric motor be combined with a diesel motor instead of a petrol motor?

I do appreciate that hybrid cars are able to get good city gas mileage, and the design makes great sense for vehicles that start and stop a lot. I'd of expected them to penetrate the market for commercial buses and taxis before the mainstream, but oddly the Prius is The Thing To Have in Hollywood. That I don't understand.

For highway miles and even mixed driving, a diesel car often gets far better gas mileage. This make sense, as diesel fuel contains more potential energy. And, because the diesel car doesn't suffer from heavy batteries, it'll handle better to. Top Gear tested this, and averaged something like 40% higher mileage in a diesel than in the already very respectable Prius. This, they hypothesized, is from hybrids doing absolutely nothing to improve highway mileage. Since hybrids excel in stop-and-go and diesel engines excel on highways, does it not make perfect sense to combine the two?

Furthermore, why don't hybrids come with manual transmissions? They are FAR more efficient than any other design. The efficiency (and value) of a pure mechanical connection has been overlooked in most hybrids. Again, this is a huge contradiction in the design.

Lastly, one of the largest contributors to poor city gas mileage is weight. Since hybrid technology costs several thousand dollars to install on a car, how does that compare to the cost of instead using an aluminum frame? Jaguar found a 500lb weight savings doing this. Could you imagine what a 2500lbs Mazda6 would do? The 2.3l engine '6 would then have 0-60 times on par with the 255hp Accord hybrid, all while getting the efficiency of a compact inline-4 in a 2500lb vehicle (Honda Civic mileage). The added bonus here is, of course, that handling and vehicle responsiveness would be phenominal if the car were that light with such a long wheelbase.

Hybrid systems, on the other hand, only make a car heavier. The batteries go in the rear, which may even out the weight distribution, but that's also the furthest spot from the vehicles center of gravity. Hybrid cars have gobs of inertia because of this, and that makes the vehicles VERY resistant to changing direction. On the other hand, some manufacturers have indicated putting electric rear-drive systems to create hybrid AWD. These cars would probably have sloppy handling but would make great commuter cars.

I will say, however, that the heavier the vehicle is, the more it stands to benefit from hybrid technology in stop-and-go traffic. Since SUVs are so popular as urban commuters, hyrids make sense here, even if they are crippled by petrol and automatics. I'm surprised hybrid technology didn't appear in SUVs first. Those, Taxis, and buses.

Anyway, it is my opinion that the current crop of hybrid cars have no reason for existence. They are a mixed bag with a clouded design goal, evident by the lack of diesel and manual transmission options. I'd be very interested in a hybrid diesel as a daily driver, but even more so, I'd much prefer the return of lightweight vehicles. Heck, if you're going to spend several thousand on improving fuel efficiency, why not do it in a way that improves handling, too? I don't think we'll ever see a hybrid sports car that is good for anything other than straight-line performance, and for that reason, I don't think they'll ever make much of a splash in the enthusiast market. Then again, enthusiasts are but a small part of the market.

http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.php?showtopic=44875

 

[victor555]

Diesel vs. hybrid:

Here are some points (advantages and disadvantages, or simply noteworthy items) on Diesels and Hybrids:

True, hybrids can cause just as much pollution, when their batteries need to be disposed off

Hybrids don't work with the same efficiency all the time. For example in extremely cold places, the battery simply does not have enough juice to provide the supplemental power. So if someone were to drive short distances each trip, before the "complete system" had a chance to warm up, the hybrid system would offer very minimal benefits.

True that right now hybrid technology is significantly more expensive (3 to 5k more) than a conventional ICE, but if hybrids were sold to the masses (across many models for example), then the "economies of scale" would evenutally make it a lot cheaper (I can envision it being something like 1.5 to 2K more)....didn't Toyota say that eventually it was their goal to offer a hybrid version of every model they sell??

In the future, with advanced technology (for example using Litium Ion, instead of the current Nickel-Metal Hydride), if battery capacity (which seems to be the major limiting factor right now) can be significantly increased WITHOUT ADDING WEIGHT, fuel economy of hybrids could go up significantly. I could see a prius being rated at something like 80city/70 highway (and similar improvements in other models as well)

Now on to Diesels:

True, that Diesels have come a long long way, and Toyota and Honda have some awesome diesel models with latest "common-rail" technology offered in Europe!!

Mercedes Benz diesels are some of the best, and the new E320CDI, a 6 cylinder midsize sedan, gets an AMAZING 30city/37hwy!!!! and this vehicle is sold in the U.S. (except for a couple of States)...consdier this: This engine generates an astounding 369lb.ft. of torque from 1800-2600RPM and goes 0-60 in a sports-car-like 6.6 secs, while at the same time giving you 780 miles to a tank of fuel on the highway!!!.....and with no penalty in smoothness, refinement or noise

Diesel engines are inherently "TORQUEY" and produce gobs of torque low down, and in the middle rpm ranges.

Now the bad news is that, for some strange unkown reason, diesel is MORE EXPENSIVE in the U.S. than the most expensive premium gas, in complete contrast to most of the rest of the world, where diesel is significantly cheaper than gasoline!! So, at least here in the U.S., some of those savings obtained by higher fuel economy are lost!!....However, biodiesel may be another story.

....and yes, a HYBRID-DIESEL combo would be the ultimate powertrain for fuel economy and UNREAL amounts of torque. Can you imagine combining the insane amounts of torque from a electric motor and a diesel engine (both of which produce huge amounts of torque)

 

[spwolfx]

so many misconceptions about both hybrids and diesels.

First of all, lets get things straight. Modern turbo diesel is abut 1,500USD to 2,000 USD more expensive than similar petrol engine. It is also 150lbs heavier than modern petrol engine. Torque is nice and it gets an nice kick, but its power band is only 1,500 rpm (thats with great engines).

Actually, comparable European diesels weight more than Toyota Prius.

Combining extra cost of diesel, with extra weight of diesel, and the fact that they are still polluters (modern super cats will add aditional 500$ cost to make diesels cleaner, but still not as clean), you pretty much lose every good point of an hybrid, and add extra weight and significant price, for few extra mpg. Aditionally, diesels have problems with warming up quickly, so they couldnt not turn off at any time. Also, because of heavy vibrations, you car would shake heavily each time it turns off.

All of that combined explains why there is no full diesel hybrid. Toyota already started selling diesel hybrid in a Van in Japan, 2004.

As to the why no manuals - Prius's CVT serves as power splitting device that regulates power from electric and gas engines. It would be impossible to have an manual transmission. Besides, CVT is more fuel efficient. Power splitting device in an Prius is very much direct mechanical link, and that poster in that forum has absolutly no knowledge of what he is talking about .

I would personally pay more for an hybrid Rav4, than for diesel Rav4. While diesels are more advanced than ever, and I shall be purchasing an diesel Rav4 in next 2-3 months, they are still very loud, and whoever says that you cant notice the diesel is pretty much an big liar. Come colder days, all of them shake and sound like tractors. That includes 7 series and S class diesels. Thats how all of our diesels sound too, even Avensis, which is considered to have pretty quiet and refined engine. Well, at 40F today, it sounded pretty throaty.

I dont see how an diesel would handle better than hybrid, if anything, opposite is true. Diesels are nose heavy, while batteries in hybrids are at back, balancing the car.

I got pretty nice mileage from our test Rav4 diesel (4.2 model), something like 30-35 mpg average, which is GREAT for europe. Gas 2.0l engine gets about 30% less, which is still pretty good.

However, our Prius gets 48mpg. Very similar Avensis diesel gets very good 35mpg. In Winter, differences are less, Prius drops to 38-40, but Avensis diesel also drops to 30mpg. This is average driving, mix of city and highway, same routes for both cars.

So to conclude:

Hybrid Rav4:
+ Best possible MPG
+ Green
+ Fastest
+ Very Quiet
- Price

Diesel Rav4
+ Great MPG
+ Nice torque
+ Good price
- diesels are still loud and not refined.
- not enviroment friendly, DCAT models cost more.

I would pick an diesel over normal 2.0 or 2.4l engine in Rav4, but I would pick hybrid over diesel at the same time.

 

[Oil Burner]

Spwolfx,

I think that you will find that the RAV4 D4D will return closer to 40mpg, mine did. It is unfair to compair the Prius to the larger Avensis, or the RAV4 with its high frontal area, four wheel drive system and elderly diesel, the corolla would be a closer match, the 1.4 Corolla diesel is actually lighter than the Prius and will return over 50mpg

It is a known fact that Hybrids do return better fuel figures in heavy traffic and so would always perform better on the commute in to London ,Manchester or Birmingham, the Diesel will do better on trunk routes.

I would argue that Hybrids are not anymore green than a diesel, simply because of the extra resources that must be consumed in the construction of electric motors, cables, circuit boards and those batteries that you will have to replace, so although while sitting in a traffic jam the Prius is blowing little in to the air, the factory where it was made has already belched more than its fair share of polutants in to the air, but nobody mentions this bit, even though it is common sense. Hybrids as they are today are a red herring.

Diesels are not particularly noisy, true they do sound a little different to a petrol, but no more noisy. My next door neighbours on both sides of me have diesels, and I can hear neither of then start up to go to work, and they can not hear my van start up either and if a diesel drove past you you would hardly be able to tell.

The biggest whinge that diesels suffer from when driven by petrol heads is that the diesel does not rev as freely as petrols. These people are missing the point. The torque provided by the diesel engine means that the engine does not have to be revved hard, and high road speeds can be achieved at very low engine revs, a BMW 5 series diesel is actually quite a bit quieter than the equivalent petrol inside the car.

 

[spwolfx]

Actually, Prius has same wheelbase of Avensis (it is based on same platform as Corolla Verso), only difference in size is rear overhangs which are larger in Avensis. 2.0 D4D diesel engine is about as fast as Prius.

Corolla 1.4 d4d is slower a much smaller vehicle.

My MPG quotes for all cars were based on personal experience, over exactly same testing routes. We have 10 different test cars and this is what we drive daily (from yaris's to Land Cruisers). Both Rav4 and Avensis get awesome mileage. Keep in mind that my mpg is average mpg for the tank I got, not some crazy number people get while driving at 60mph on the highway.

I clearly dont agree on the noise. Its there, its loud. You might get used to it, but it is much louder than gas engine. This is especially true in cold mornings, where all of them are pretty loud. Compared to Prius, diesel engine is way, way, way louder. The day I made the comment, we got 3 different diesels delivered - Rav4, Avensis and new Hilux. at 40F (3-4C) they were really loud.

Prius is currently most ecological mass produced car on the planet, according to german ADAC testing, from time is starts building in the factory to the time it gets recycled.

You are right about people not getting diesels being torque mosters and not free revving. It is completly different type of vehicle. If anything, kickback you get from the turbo is pretty nice and in most cases, diesels feel a lot faster.

This is why I said I was buying diesel rav4 over petrol one, but at the same time, I would get hybrid rav4 and pay more for it. On average it would have about the same or slightly better mpg than diesel but it would also be as fast as V6 and much quieter...

 

[Oil Burner]

Indeed the Prius does have the same 2.7m wheelbase as the Avensis, but the Avensis is far more spacious in my opinion and has a far bigger boot, the problem that we have is that the Prius is a bit of an inbetweenie and is slightly larger than a Corolla and slightly smaller than an Avensis but in terms of usabillity is closer to the Corolla.

The only time that a diesel is ever noisy is for the first few mins after start up, there is a little diesel knock, after that they will settle down. We will have to agree to disagree on the noise level, I do not find them noisy at all, and the sound that came from under the bonnet of a VW Transporter 2.5 TDI 5 cyl is what caused me to head for my local van centre for a test drive, true the PD diesels are a little noisier than regular diesels but the BMW 5 series or the Audi V6 diesels are silky smooth and very quiet. I take it that you are in the UK, US diesel at the moment is very poor quality and would make the engines run unevenly and make them smoke quite badly if you were in the US.

Levels of greeness are very difficult to measure because folk measure different things to prove their point. A good example is that the Europeans view diesels as realatively eco freindly because we measuer CO2, the Americans see them the spawn of satan because they measure different pollutants, my over simplistic measure is weigh less, burn less, emit less. As I have said, Hybrids are great for town work where they have the advantage, but they have some way to go before they get it right, I am very surprised that with the voltages available some effort has not been made to replace the valve train with solenoid valves, there was some talk some years ago to use a 42Volt system to do away with every pully and drive belt giving very close control of the systems and best of all, infinately variable timing to tune the engine to constantly give the best for any given engine speed, I understan that Renault had a number of 1 litre Clios with 42V systems on and were producing outragous perfomance and economy, so whilst we go through Betamax, VHS and videodisc, I'll drive a diesel thanks

Incidentaly I noted that Ford were developing a Diesel Hybrid sports car which should be novel as Ford rely on Peugeot technology for its diesel engines

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060103/FREE/60103005/1057

 

[flyingn]

Im not a hybrid fan... The diesel may be a cool option tho....

Frank

 

[rav4cat]

Diesel for all!!!

Hallo to all!!! This is my first post

I agree,
that's the reason who buy the 2,2lit diesel model 136ps , 310nm!!!

it costs 4000euros ( 5000$ ) more :?
but the petrol in my coutry any year gets 10% up

The 2,2lit model 177ps, 400nm is not sell in Greece, because it needs "ultra clead diesel" to works.... never mind.

 

[karrock]

I re-opened the poll, since it really shouldn't have had a timeout in the first place... 8)