[SDGTR]

This poll is worthless by the way. First people are far more likely to report their "successes" as opposed to failure (paying over MSRP). Second market situations keep changing. So motivation to pay over MSRP has changed as well. And third, the 7500 tax incentive dropped out.

I got my SE at MSRP plus $299 doc fee, which was their doc fee for years, so cannot quibble. Put in my desires in May 2021. Got informed of the vehicle leaving Japan March of 2021 (not long after Ukraine was invaded). Dealer held by their commitment to sell for MSRP. Molle Toyota here in KC. Honorable people.

Had $1000 down at Hendrick Toyota in KC are as well. They later squirmed out of the deal, demanding over $6000 add ons (which I refused) instead of the $1600 I had agreed to. Moment I said "I'll pass" they promptly cancelled the earlier "deal", which they made me SIGN for even, and issued me a check.

I have bought several Toyotas from Jay Wolfe in KC through the years. I started asking about Prime in late 2020 with the dealer I have used long term. They required no down since I was an existing customer. Told them I wanted Silver SE with Weather Pkg. In July 2021 they offered me a Silver XSE with Premium Pkg over 50k, but at MSRP. Lots of stuff like running boards that I was not interested in (at the time). Politely I declined (pre-Ukraine). I kept in touch with my saleman. In March 2022, he informed me "the rules have changed" and they were then charging $5000 market adjustment.

Next Toyota I buy:
Hendrick
Jay Wolfe
Molle

Everything you said is accounted for in the poll. Even the first thing you said -- that people are more likely to report successes. That's specifically why I made the answers anonymous. No one will know which option you picked unless you want to say so after voting.

This is just s simple poll on a small internet forum, it is not a research paper for a PhD dissertation or Master's thesis.

Your story and several others give a good perspective of how the market has changed in just two years because of Covid, Ukraine, and other factors. It also looks like some parts of the US like the northeast are more likely to see R4Ps being sold at MSRP and states like CA and a few others are getting the short end of the MSRP stick. It also looks like in general it was easier to find them at MSRP when they first came out.

 

[SDGTR]

There is a word for claiming a tax credit / rebate that you KNOW you are not entitled / eligible for…….
FRAUD

I understand the laws changed and the dates left some out in the cold, but that’s no excuse.

There are also words for the practices the IRS engages in on a daily basis.

 

[jlawr1]

So far 50% who have voted got MSRP w/no markups.

Curious, when did you buy and did you have to wait a long time?

In August 2020, I reqested Longo Toyota to build my 2021 RAV4 Prime XSE with the Weather Package only and no Port Options. I had to wait nine months, but I got the exact car I wanted in the exact color I wanted, exactly the way I wanted with NO added Options and No Dealer Markup.
I've already asked my dealer to notify my when the R4P with a solid state battery becomes available, and I hope to "order" the same way.
I was very blessed to get this car when I did. I was very proactive too.

 

[CoffeeBear]

In August 2020, I reqested Longo Toyota to build my 2021 RAV4 Prime XSE with the Weather Package only and no Port Options. I had to wait nine months, but I got the exact car I wanted in the exact color I wanted, exactly the way I wanted with NO added Options and No Dealer Markup.
I've already asked my dealer to notify my when the R4P with a solid state battery becomes available, and I hope to "order" the same way.
I was very blessed to get this car when I did. I was very proactive too.

huh, I didn't know that was finally going to happen. that will be great for EVs in general.

 

[eGor451]

huh, I didn't know that was finally going to happen. that will be great for EVs in general.

My sources in Toyota battery development tell me 2025 for new battery tech. They've been working on it for 5 years now as everything in their development line is a 5-year plan. Should be double the range and half the charge time. You will also have the option of reconditioned Li-On battery replacement for less $$ which is something else they are working on.
SS is one avenue that Toyota is pursuing, Tesla is pursuing silicon...all are basically variations on a theme of increasing density of battery components. There are the usual pros and cons of this road...they are working on it. Toyota is furthest on the solid state stuff and Tesla the furthest on the silicon method...I am most interested in the refurbished existing battery tech, but I am an outlier on these things.

 

[SDGTR]

My sources in Toyota battery development tell me 2025 for new battery tech. They've been working on it for 5 years now as everything in their development line is a 5-year plan. Should be double the range and half the charge time. You will also have the option of reconditioned Li-On battery replacement for less $$ which is something else they are working on.
SS is one avenue that Toyota is pursuing, Tesla is pursuing silicon...all are basically variations on a theme of increasing density of battery components. There are the usual pros and cons of this road...they are working on it. Toyota is furthest on the solid state stuff and Tesla the furthest on the silicon method...I am most interested in the refurbished existing battery tech, but I am an outlier on these things.

You have more of an inside scoop but from what I've been able to find, 2025 is the earliest we might see SS in cars but they will be very limited in quantity and pretty expensive. Everything I've seen points to 2028 being the first year we will see more widespread use and the mid 2030s by the time they are considered standard. It would be nice if companies would make a retrofit kit that would allow people to simply swap their Li-ion batteries for SS but I doubt that will happen....wishful thinking.

 

[eGor451]

You have more of an inside scoop but from what I've been able to find, 2025 is the earliest we might see SS in cars but they will be very limited in quantity and pretty expensive. Everything I've seen points to 2028 being the first year we will see more widespread use and the mid 2030s by the time they are considered standard. It would be nice if companies would make a retrofit kit that would allow people to simply swap their Li-ion batteries for SS but I doubt that will happen....wishful thinking.

Yes I have some connections, especially to engineers there working on battery tech. It’s a fascination of mine.
Next gen batteries will be available in Toyotas in 2025, but I said nothing about them being cheap 😂 the problem is largely to do with production scale. It’s one thing to make a SS battery the size of a quarter and put in a smartwatch or pacemaker; quite a different trick to make them 800lbs behemoth that powers a car and can be cooled to less than the ignition temperature of their casing material! They will try to increase the density of the lithium divider between anodes, of course, but that will require time and energy in which will equate to higher costs.
so you are surprised at $60K?? You ain’t seen nothin’ yet! 😃

 

[SDGTR]

Yes I have some connections, especially to engineers there working on battery tech. It’s a fascination of mine.
Next gen batteries will be available in Toyotas in 2025, but I said nothing about them being cheap 😂 the problem is largely to do with production scale. It’s one thing to make a SS battery the size of a quarter and put in a smartwatch or pacemaker; quite a different trick to make them 800lbs behemoth that powers a car and can be cooled to less than the ignition temperature of their casing material! They will try to increase the density of the lithium divider between anodes, of course, but that will require time and energy in which will equate to higher costs.
so you are surprised at $60K?? You ain’t seen nothin’ yet! 😃

Yep. The $55K the 2023 is going to cost me is already more than I'd like to pay for a car. More than that is definitely a deal breaker. But who knows... like I had mentioned, if it holds its value after 5+ years, might be worth trading it in if an affordable SS version is around.

 

[Dontmind]

it's actually not very well defined from the research I've done on the topic. there seems to be room for interpretation in there.

there is significant room to make a case (if one is inclined and I am) that I get the credit. If they, the IRS, wishes to spend $100K on me trying to retrieve $7500 then that is their call. My accountants, bookkeepers, and lawyers are at the ready!

First, I am on the same boat with those that believe the IRA is nothing but a big mess that only to benefit few corporate donors, and depriving people from using their Tax dollars toward the purchasing of EVs/PHEVs!

Understand that many feel strongly about the confusing definitions and interpretations of the IRA, and feel those definitions and interpretations of the IRA are subject to one's own understandings. - Good luck.

For my old age, I have never encounter anyone (individual and Corporate) that have proved IRS audit to be wrong. Many I personally known of have ended up paying thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars to IRS after an audit.
Most commonly are those that "interpretate" Tax Laws based on their own beliefs, accountant buddies (None CPA with 8th grade math level) and self-claimed financial experts.
Those beliefs, fuzzy math and advises absolutely means nothing during an audit, and all those "advisors" will disappear faster than you can sneeze when you get an audit notice.
As for having a $500 an hour lawyer, let see how many hundreds of hours you will be billed only to settle with IRS with Tax dues and penalties.

 

[Jeffp25]

There is pressure for LFP (which is already available) but the lower energy density and need to keep the batteries warm in cold climates makes them less than ideal for EV/hybrid use. Solid state batteries are interesting, but even if the battery packs are available for cars in 2025, it will take lots of time (years) before that trickles down to vehicles. But it would be great if they were available as a "drop in" replacement for the NCM battery pack in the Prime in a few years - realistically maybe 8 or so years from now - by then, there should be enough Primes on the road to make this interesting to someone.

 

[eGor451]

First, I am on the same boat with those that believe the IRA is nothing but a big mess that only to benefit few corporate donors, and depriving people from using their Tax dollars toward the purchasing of EVs/PHEVs!

Understand that many feel strongly about the confusing definitions and interpretations of the IRA, and feel those definitions and interpretations of the IRA are subject to one's own understandings. - Good luck.

For my old age, I have never encounter anyone (individual and Corporate) that have proved IRS audit to be wrong. Many I personally known of have ended up paying thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars to IRS after an audit.
Most commonly are those that "interpretate" Tax Laws based on their own beliefs, accountant buddies (None CPA with 8th grade math level) and self-claimed financial experts.
Those beliefs, fuzzy math and advises absolutely means nothing during an audit, and all those "advisors" will disappear faster than you can sneeze when you get an audit notice.
As for having a $500 an hour lawyer, let see how many hundreds of hours you will be billed only to settle with IRS with Tax dues and penalties.

Naw, thanks for the concern but really, I’m not worried ☺
the lawyers are on retainer and get paid whether I use them or not, and they ain’t no $500/hour! That’s a “watch too much TV thing” …I did give one of them an Apple gift card last Christmas! 😂🙄

this ain’t my 1st rodeo and they would have to flag this deduction out of a veritable ocean of deductions and exceptions. And I just have a few small businesses. This would NOT trigger an audit. Which I have had 1 in over 40 years of being in business; and when all was said and done, it hurt them much more than it hurt me 😅
IOW, I have a track record of being honest and paying my taxes and am not on their radar…

Worst case scenario is I am issued a letter that says I made a mistake and underpaid $7500 in taxes for 2022. I then have a period of time (usually 3 months to the next quarter) to either pay it or dispute it.
If I pay it, no harm no foul;
if I dispute it and lose, there may be some penalties (a few hundred dollars)…
if I dispute it and win…huzzah! Everybody gets laid! 😂 (actually I just spend it on a family trip or leave it in a MMF earning 4% until it’s time for next car purchase…
Like I said, no big deal…

Amongst over $250K in deductions, credits, and promotions over 3 small businesses I own and operate, someone at IRS would need to take a deep dive into the paperwork behind one $7500 deduction for a car that, let’s face it, “may or may not be legit”…. then cross reference against my history and track record, and then someone above them will need to decide if it’s worth it to pursue me for the $7500.
After all that; If they do decide to persue me, send me the letter, and I decide to dispute it, my CPA advises me and files the paperwork and then the lawyers finally stop shopping and watching porn all day; and get off their asses, and do some of that lawyer s—t.

In the end, not afraid of the IRS, but I am respectful of ginormous huge lumbering behemoth government agencies and I try to stay out of their gaze. 😃

 

[Dontmind]

they ain’t no $500/hour! That’s a “watch too much TV thing

Perhaps someone is behind on the current basic attorney rate, or got a discount rate : )

 

[eGor451]

Perhaps someone is behind on the current basic attorney rate, or got a discount rate : )
View attachment 192049

Retainer is $70K/year spread over 3 businesses. They handle everything that comes down the pike in normal course of year.
I am aware of expensive private attorney fees but that’s not what we are discussing here.

 

[Pittsburgh]

Naw, thanks for the concern but really, I’m not worried ☺
the lawyers are on retainer and get paid whether I use them or not, and they ain’t no $500/hour! That’s a “watch too much TV thing” …I did give one of them an Apple gift card last Christmas! 😂🙄

this ain’t my 1st rodeo and they would have to flag this deduction out of a veritable ocean of deductions and exceptions. And I just have a few small businesses. This would NOT trigger an audit. Which I have had 1 in over 40 years of being in business; and when all was said and done, it hurt them much more than it hurt me 😅
IOW, I have a track record of being honest and paying my taxes and am not on their radar…

Worst case scenario is I am issued a letter that says I made a mistake and underpaid $7500 in taxes for 2022. I then have a period of time (usually 3 months to the next quarter) to either pay it or dispute it.
If I pay it, no harm no foul;
if I dispute it and lose, there may be some penalties (a few hundred dollars)…
if I dispute it and win…huzzah! Everybody gets laid! 😂 (actually I just spend it on a family trip or leave it in a MMF earning 4% until it’s time for next car purchase…
Like I said, no big deal…

Amongst over $250K in deductions, credits, and promotions over 3 small businesses I own and operate, someone at IRS would need to take a deep dive into the paperwork behind one $7500 deduction for a car that, let’s face it, “may or may not be legit”…. then cross reference against my history and track record, and then someone above them will need to decide if it’s worth it to pursue me for the $7500.
After all that; If they do decide to persue me, send me the letter, and I decide to dispute it, my CPA advises me and files the paperwork and then the lawyers finally stop shopping and watching porn all day; and get off their asses, and do some of that lawyer s—t.

In the end, not afraid of the IRS, but I am respectful of ginormous huge lumbering behemoth government agencies and I try to stay out of their gaze. 😃

Best of luck with your tax cheating. Posting about it online highlights the enormity of your business acumen.

 

[eGor451]

Best of luck with your tax cheating. Posting about it online highlights the enormity of your business acumen.

Oh geez, nobody is cheating anyone. Just playing the game like everyone else.

Sorry you think the worst of me.

Peace ☮

 

[bhoangee]

Hi all, Sorry if I post this in the wrong thread.
I have an out of state proposal for a XSE trim, with nothing installed, port nor dealer, bared bones I might add.
Dealer is asking for ~56K for DO price. It's already included 5K mark-up.
Of course it's lacking the color I like (Blueprint) and popular pkgs (weather and/or premium). And I don't really need the car at this minute.
Question (1) should I sleep on it, holding out for better one comes along?
(2) They also have 8% rate for 60-mo financing, which I could get lower rate somewhere else.
Thanks for all inputs.
P.S. Mod, please move the post if not in the right spot.

 

[CoffeeBear]

Hi all, Sorry if I post this in the wrong thread.
I have an out of state proposal for a XSE trim, with nothing installed, port nor dealer, bared bones I might add.
Dealer is asking for ~56K for DO price. It's already included 5K mark-up.
Of course it's lacking the color I like (Blueprint) and popular pkgs (weather and/or premium). And I don't really need the car at this minute.
Question (1) should I sleep on it, holding out for better one comes along?
(2) They also have 8% rate for 60-mo financing, which I could get lower rate somewhere else.
Thanks for all inputs.
P.S. Mod, please move the post if not in the right spot.

I'd never go for that but I don't know what your local market is like.

 

[bhoangee]

I'd never go for that but I don't know what your local market is like.

My local market is crazy. On the other thread (I posted) the dealer wanted ~73K for the XSE trim with no breakdown prices nor VIN.
From what they listed, maybe 1K of DIO, and the rest is just plain mark-up. I think they plan to trade with some other dealer and can pocket the differences as they don't even have one in transit.
And I already wait for a year for a better market hopefully they slashed price like Tesla

 

[CoffeeBear]

My local market is crazy. On the other thread (I posted) the dealer wanted ~73K for the XSE trim with no breakdown prices nor VIN.
From what they listed, maybe 1K of DIO, and the rest is just plain mark-up. I think they plan to trade with some other dealer and can pocket the differences as they don't even have one in transit.
And I already wait for a year for a better market hopefully they slashed price like Tesla

Well, I had the choice of a short wait and a $4000ish mark-up or a much longer wait and no mark-up. I went with the latter.

Where are you at?

 

[bhoangee]

Well, I had the choice of a short wait and a $4000ish mark-up or a much longer wait and no mark-up. I went with the latter.

Where are you at?

I don't mind waiting as long as I get the car I want with little to no mark-up. I'm in Houston, TX.