Toyota RAV4 Forums banner

21 - 40 of 75 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
..ok.. I found some Amsoil Severe Gear 75w/110 .... @ $20/qt ... which (according to the Amsoil datasheet) ... outperforms the 75w/90 at high temps .... sounds good so far ...
There is however, no specific mention of suitability for synchromesh transmissions .... which is a bit of a worry.

Does the inclusion on the list of the Amsoil Severe Gear 75w/90 come from a recommendation?... or researching the specs?..or?

Amsoil have the same datasheet for all of their 'Severe Gear' oils...they do 75w/90, 110 & 140 versions ... and again, no specific mention of suitability for synchro 'box's for any of them that I can see....

what do you reckon?

Screenshot_20190113-111327_WPS Office_1547349232762.jpg
Screenshot_20190113-111340_WPS Office_1547349303624.jpg

are my screenshot thumbnails working ok ? ... they dont seem to expand correctly on my phone?! ...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
1998 RAV4 FWD (2WD) manual transmission:

As noted in my own Thread, "6-Questions:RAV4 2WD 5-Speed Transmission Fluid Change":
eodgator saved me from oblivion when 2 different Toyota Dealership Parts Reps. said "Use GL-5" (wrong!) even after telling them "2WD" (FWD). After eodgator set me straight, on 28DEC2019 I R&R'd this transmission fluid that STOPPED 1st-to-2nd gear slippage (I concluded that mechanic installed WRONG fluid during an earlier clutch job):

Red Line #50305 [#50305 = 1-Gal. or #50304 = 1-Qt., same oil, different size] MT-90 75W90 GL-4 Gear Oil 1-Gal. Hoerr Racing Products $58.95 from Amazon.
 

·
Premium Member
'99 RAV4.1, 3MZ-FE, E250F 4x4, Torsen Dif
Joined
·
2,159 Posts
Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
..ok.. I found some Amsoil Severe Gear 75w/110 .... @ $20/qt ... which (according to the Amsoil datasheet) ... outperforms the 75w/90 at high temps .... sounds good so far ...
There is however, no specific mention of suitability for synchromesh transmissions .... which is a bit of a worry.

Does the inclusion on the list of the Amsoil Severe Gear 75w/90 come from a recommendation?... or researching the specs?..or?

Amsoil have the same datasheet for all of their 'Severe Gear' oils...they do 75w/90, 110 & 140 versions ... and again, no specific mention of suitability for synchro 'box's for any of them that I can see....

what do you reckon?

View attachment 122871
View attachment 122873

are my screenshot thumbnails working ok ? ... they dont seem to expand correctly on my phone?! ...
See AMSOIL vehicle selector chart https://www.amsoil.com/lookup/auto-...av4/2-0l-4-cyl-engine-code-3s-fe-a/us-volume/ and select from the menu "Transmission" go down till you see the Severe Gear listing. Ignore all their erroneous listings for AWD E250 and 2WD E250F, for some reason several sites do this. I have requested that they correct their site.

On their products recommended for different systems they recommend the AMSOIL Severe Gear 75W90 and 75W110 for the E250F AWD transaxle but be aware that the 75W110 is out of spec, it is probably okay from what AMSOIL states and my research but just know that it is.

I should have stated that I contacted AMSOIL recently and they assured me that the Severe Gear is great in synchronized transmissions. There are also several reviews from owners of vehicles with synchronized transmissions that give it a top rating.

Yes, your thumbnails show up and work fine.

Oops when I rearranged my chart I didn't get the specifications sheets to match. I'll submit a new sheet soon to fix that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
.....but be aware that the 75W110 is out of spec, it is probably okay from what AMSOIL states and my research but just know that it is.
what do you mean by 'out of spec' ? ... do you mean NOT 75w/90 as specified by Toyota? If so... i'm not overly concerned by that.
The ambient temps experienced here place more importance on the high temp. spec. ..provided it is equal or greater than 90 .... I'm happy. Cold temp. spec. is just never gonna be an issue..

Had a good browse on that Amsoil website ... great to read so many decent reviews ...thanks for the link.. ?

I've ordered 6 qts .... still need to find some cheap stuff to flush with...
 

·
Premium Member
'99 RAV4.1, 3MZ-FE, E250F 4x4, Torsen Dif
Joined
·
2,159 Posts
Discussion Starter #25 (Edited)
Now anyone can see why this is all so confusing, many gear oils offer little information and many have erroneous information which doesn't give me a big warm fuzzy when listing them or buying from them. I was trying to put out rules like don't buy anything meeting the MT-1 spec but then there are many glaring examples where it doesn't apply. I also tried to say don't buy it if it doesn't specifically state its for a synchronized transmission but there are many that don't clearly state it but reviews show that they do work. Then you have lots of people saying a particular gear oil is a problem and others that swear by it. I doubt if anyone is being misleading but it may be contributed to wear, driving habits, and other things that I cannot begin to guess.

As you can see I'm not trying to baffle anyone with lengthy discussions over compositions, additives, Brand X over Brand Y, etc. I just simply want to figure out what works at least what works with the fewest chance of complications. After all these are all very old vehicles now most over 100,000 miles and many way way over that so I don't want to list anything that may only work with like new condition transmissions. I want what I list here to work period in all transmissions that are in good working order.

To be clear, I will not list, no matter what a company says or anyone else endorses that doesn't meet the minimum requirements from Toyota which is, E250 2wd - 75W90 GL-4 and E250F AWD - 75W90 GL-5. Feel free to post here but I won't list anything in my charts that doesn't meet these minimum specs.

I discovered that Mobil1 gear oil did not work and many others have had similar experiences with other brands, poor shifting, sometimes you cannot even get into some geasr, grinding synchros, and it's so bad that it just seems like it's time for a rebuild or just get rid of the RAV4 it while it still moves at all. Reading through old threads and even this one you will find many people that were told they needed a transmission rebuild but after a simple oil change all was good again.

Of course the simple thing to do is just buy the mysterious secret formula Toyota gear oil. The only clue I've found about it is an MSDS from EXXONMobil listing it so I assume it must be made by them. Strange that EXXONMobil does not offer a similar gear oil under their own label. The main reason I shy away from the Toyota gear oil is the extremely high price and lack of any specifications, it's price gouging at it's finest, Toyota must be quite proud of themselves.
 

·
Premium Member
'99 RAV4.1, 3MZ-FE, E250F 4x4, Torsen Dif
Joined
·
2,159 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
what do you mean by 'out of spec' ? ... do you mean NOT 75w/90 as specified by Toyota? If so... i'm not overly concerned by that.
The ambient temps experienced here place more importance on the high temp. spec. ..provided it is equal or greater than 90 .... I'm happy. Cold temp. spec. is just never gonna be an issue..

Had a good browse on that Amsoil website ... great to read so many decent reviews ...thanks for the link.. ?

I've ordered 6 qts .... still need to find some cheap stuff to flush with...
Out of spec is the 110, like you say low temps are not going to be a problem in the Philippines so the higher temp rating is probably a good idea.

Check out the ENEOS gear oil I think I saw that it was available there. You may be able to try a straight 85 or 90 weight gear oil, just don't push it hard and get it out as soon as you can or if you mostly do short drives without a lot of shifting just use a 75W gear oil.

I know what you mean about being in locations where it is difficult to get things you want and when a store owner or clerk looks at you and you can see that they are thinking, "why would anyone want something that I don't have to sale?" Spent 11 out of 22 years in the USAF overseas, 3 of them in the UK at RAF Lakenheath and the rest at Misawa AB, Japan. Although I've been on temporary duty all over Europe and SE Asia. I never did get to the Philippines I was going there but Mount Pinatubo got angry and messed it up, maybe one day I'll manage to make my way back to that part of the world.

Have you turned your RAV4 into a Jeepney? For those of you who don't know what a Jeepney is... https://theculturetrip.com/asia/philippines/articles/how-to-ride-a-jeepney-in-the-philippines/
 

·
Premium Member
'99 RAV4.1, 3MZ-FE, E250F 4x4, Torsen Dif
Joined
·
2,159 Posts
Discussion Starter #27
Back to the never ending gear oil saga.

I found out the reason several sites list the E250 as AWD and 2WD and the E250F as AWD and 2Wd is the ACES database they use. I have contacted them and requested that they correct their information.

I have also had several say that the E250F transaxle can use either the GL-4 or GL-5 spec gear oils according to Toyota. I asked for any written guidance that they may have from Toyota but I haven;t received a response yet. I believe that this is an error in the same ACES database.

I contacted Toyota for clarification on the GL-4 vs GL-5 thing and I also requested a data sheet for their gear oil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
609 Posts
I have also had several say that the E250F transaxle can use either the GL-4 or GL-5 spec gear oils according to Toyota.

EDIT: In my 98 RAV4 owner's manual, both GL-4 and GL-5 are approved for the E250... and GL-5 for E250F.


I've always privileged the GL-4 because the stating on RedLine's website telling that GL-5 gear oils contents bad additives for brass syncros.


In reality; it's not the E250F transmission that needs GL-5, it's the transfer-case (it's written in the owner's manual). But in the E250F the oil pump not only feeds the fifth gear, but also the t-case pinion bearings... so the transmission and the t-case share the same oil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
It's exactly what is written in my 98 RAV4 owner's manual. Both GL-4 and GL-5 are approved .....


Maybe the recommnded gear oils are not the same in US and Canada...
Really? ... YOUR '98 owners manual says GL-4 & GL-5 ..for the 4 wheel drive models? .... are you sure?
.. because my '98 owners manual is very clear ..GL-5 for the 4 wheel drive models...

Screenshot_20190115-084758_WPS Office_1547513605122.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
609 Posts
Really? ... YOUR '98 owners manual says GL-4 & GL-5 ..for the 4 wheel drive models? .... are you sure?
.. because my '98 owners manual is very clear ..GL-5 for the 4 wheel drive models...

View attachment 122881

Sorry, I've made a mistake. I edited my post.
 
  • Like
Reactions: eodgator

·
Premium Member
'99 RAV4.1, 3MZ-FE, E250F 4x4, Torsen Dif
Joined
·
2,159 Posts
Discussion Starter #32
I've always privileged the GL-4 because the stating on RedLine's website telling that GL-5 gear oils contents bad additives for brass syncros.
.
I thought the same thing about corrosion issues from my research then I started paying attention to the dates on the articles and most were over 10 years old. Modern quality gear oils have long since rectified the corrosion issue so, they are safe and don't damage the synchros, the seals. or anything else. This is why I changed the chart and removed the column concerning corrosion, and made an earlier statement clarifying the issue.

This is a lot of the problem with gear oils is old outdated information still lives, the manufacturers, distributors, and purveyors of the gear oil are akin to snake oil salesmen of old. They often provide little useful information, some provide lots of lab analysis, some have great sales pitches for snake oil, but few share any real world information in plain speak so that anyone can make an informed decision. Personally I just want a salesperson or web page to give me the basics, I want to know what their product can do for me and why I should buy their product over Brand X. Don't try to baffle me with BS.

Take AMSOIL and Red Line they were both recommending GL-4 and GL-5 gear oils because they both use the same ACES Database which is inaccurate. When I pointed it out to Red Line they seem like they may take measures to fix it but the AMSOIL customer service rep said that's what the database says so that's what they are going to use for their data and to base their recommendations on... thanks for the great customer service AMSOIL (sarcasm).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
... well I've just got the Mag1 75w/90 full synth out of my AWD transmission and replaced it with 5L of straight weight GL-4 gear oil ... see pic. That really was all that was available quickly ... and yes, I had to go with 4L of 90 ..and 1L of 140 .. again.. that is what was available. Only way to get a GL-5 oil was to buy a synthetic ... which puts me back to square one. Since its only in there temporarily, to flush off the synthetic.... im not too concerned by it.

That Mag 1 75w/90 had done nothing for the dodgy 1st gear synchro, altho that could well be just worn thro old age so I wasnt expecting miracles.... but actually in the last few weeks the upshift from 1st to 2nd had started to become sticky too. All in all ... disappointing.. I dont think it was a good choice for this transaxle.... esp. since it cost me around $100 for the 5L. The Caltex stuff I just put in was $18 for 5L.

Ive just been for a short 10mile drive to circulate the new stuff and what is immediately noticeable is how much quieter the transmission is now .... I'll keep it in there for a few hundred miles ..then ditch it for the Amsoil Severe Gear when it arrives.

20190116_113821_1547617757274.jpg
 

·
Premium Member
'99 RAV4.1, 3MZ-FE, E250F 4x4, Torsen Dif
Joined
·
2,159 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
AMSOIL replied to my request for more information and a correction to the database they use but, they responded with little information and they added a non-disclosure statement so I cannot share discuss the email exchange any further. I did ask them why the nondisclosure statement but they have ignored my request to date, terrible customer service on their part, glad I went with Red Line.

Toyota responded back concerning the gear oil issue and all they had to say is follow the owner's manual which really doesn't say much, they didn't even recommend their own gear oil. I also asked for a data sheet or any information for the Toyota 08885-02106 75W90 GL-5 gear oil and they didn't provide anything. I resubmitted my request for the data sheet/information in case they just overlooked my request.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
I use gl5 for hypoid differentials. Use gl5 in the rear diff, center diff (if auto awd) and use in the manual transmission since it shares oil with center diff on awd. Front wheel drive manual should be ok with gl4 or gl5
 

·
Premium Member
'99 RAV4.1, 3MZ-FE, E250F 4x4, Torsen Dif
Joined
·
2,159 Posts
Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
I use gl5 for hypoid differentials. Use gl5 in the rear diff, center diff (if auto awd) and use in the manual transmission since it shares oil with center diff on awd. Front wheel drive manual should be ok with gl4 or gl5
What hypoid gear oils do you use? I can find nothing showing that all hypoid gear oils are safe in synchronized transmissions.

For an example Mag 1 75w/90 GL5 is a hypoid gear oil yet it makes synchros slip, there are other examples. This is the problem I have had with researching gear oils, there is no set rule that seems to work and there is no SAE, API, or MIL standard to clearly delineate gear oils that work in synchronized transmissions.
 

·
Premium Member
'99 RAV4.1, 3MZ-FE, E250F 4x4, Torsen Dif
Joined
·
2,159 Posts
Discussion Starter #37
AMSOIL got back with me and they said they will correct their database showing GL-4 and GL-5 gear oils for the manual FWD transmissions and GL-5 only for the AWD transmissions. I don't know if they will fix the database error showing E250 and E250F transmissions as both being awd and 2wd. And they dropped the non-disclosure statement, even though they did not post a response to my question concerning why they had one in the first place.
 

·
Premium Member
'99 RAV4.1, 3MZ-FE, E250F 4x4, Torsen Dif
Joined
·
2,159 Posts
Discussion Starter #38
Another tidbit of trivia, when you see MIL-PRF-2105E referenced on many API GL-5 gear oils, it is a long cancelled standard; over 22 years, replaced by SAE J2360! And, MIL-L-2105D was replaced by MIL-L-2105E so it has been replaced even longer! Yet you see a lot of oil companies referring to these long cancelled MIL specs and of course they fail to mention that they don't meet SAE J2360 standard that replaced them.

J2360 is a standard that any API GL-5 gear oil you use should meet so I will add a new column for it. You will be surprised how many gear oils that are supposed to be top notch and charge premium prices that don't meet the J2360 spec, this is what I mean by snake oil salesmen.

MIL-PRF-2105E, dated 22 August 1995, is hereby canceled as of 16 February 2005 and has been replaced by Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) J2360, “Lubricating Oil, Gear Multipurpose (Metric) Use.”

SAE J2360 the most rigorous industry-wide axle lubricant specification
One of the traditional standards for axle lubricants has been API Category GL-5. However, the increasing demands on axle components have revealed its shortcomings.

More effective vehicle aerodynamics that raise driveline operating temperatures and increased engine power are both examples of why improvements in equipment design demand SAE J2360-approved gear oil.

Today’s axle lubrication priorities include improved surface protection and reduced fatigue, high thermal durability, thermal and oxidative stability and seal compatibility. These features all lead to a reduction in maintenance, downtime and warranty claims.

Unfortunately, a lubricant conforming solely to API GL-5 may not necessarily meet these criteria. The API GL-5 standard does not require field testing or a test for oil seal compatibility, and does not address the need for thermal stability, which can lead to damage of oil seals through build-up of deposits.

SAE J2360 includes all the tests involved in API GL-5, but goes even further to incorporate several additional tests. This increased level of rigor results in a gear oil that provides maximum performance.

Requirements that go beyond GL-5 include:

ASTM D5704 (L-60-1): This ensures that the lubricant keeps shafts, gears and oil seals free from sludge and deposits.
ASTM D5662 Oil Seal Compatibility: This identifies gear oils that cause oil seals to harden, crack and deteriorate.
ASTM D7603 Storage Stability and Compatibility (SS&C): This ensures integrity during prolonged storage and compatibility with other SAE J2360-approved oils.
Unlike API GL-5, SAE J2360 approval also requires acceptable performance in controlled field tests in both light- and heavy-duty equipment. The light-duty testing ensures equipment protection for 100,000 miles of service with no oil change, while the heavy-duty test requires protection for 200,000 miles of service with no oil change.

Once all SAE J2360 tests have been completed, the data is reviewed and a visual inspection of tested parts is conducted by an independent panel of industry experts for approval. It is this combination of the additional stationary testing, field testing, verification of test data and inspection of parts that clearly separates SAE J2360-approved gear oils from the pack.
Ref: https://www.fleetequipmentmag.com/heavy-duty-truckgear-oil-specification-sae-j2360/
 
21 - 40 of 75 Posts
Top