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I agree, if it's marked up $7,000 I'm not getting it. Not yet anyway. But for me, in my state, and buying at list price, it's maybe $1,500 more. Not so unreasonable for a cool car.

One of the odd things about comparing any car that (already) gets good mileage is that there is sort of a point of diminishing returns. It's one thing to go from a 4Runner to a RAV4. The RAV4 will save you $2,000/year, even if you only drive 12,000 miles. But going from 40mpg to 50 mpg only saves $240/year. And going from 50 mpg to 60mpg saves $160/year. So from a purely $$$ perspective, what's the point. On the other hand, electric mode has about 1/2 the pollution of gas mode. So there's that.
I don't understand your numbers. How is Rav4 going to save you $2000 a year over 4Runner?

Some other car (12k miles / 50 mpg) * $3 per gallon = $720 (Saves $180)
Rav4 (12k miles / 40 mpg) * $3 per gallon = $900 (Saves $1100)
4Runner (12k miles / 18 mpg) * $3 per gallon = $2000
 

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I don't understand your numbers. How is Rav4 going to save you $2000 a year over 4Runner?

Some other car (12k miles / 50 mpg) * $3 per gallon = $720 (Saves $180)
Rav4 (12k miles / 40 mpg) * $3 per gallon = $900 (Saves $1100)
4Runner (12k miles / 18 mpg) * $3 per gallon = $2000
Sorry, I was using $4.00/gallon, should have said that. (I really don't think gas is going to stay at $1.99) And I have a 4Runner, it's V8, if I get 18 I'm doing pretty damn good. (and even with a 25 gallon tank, I'm pretty happy if I can go 325 miles between fill ups.)

The point being, if you go from a 4Runner, or a Yukon, or anything named after a mountain range, to a RAV4, or some other smaller car, there is room for big savings.
 

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Sorry, I was using $4.00/gallon, should have said that. (I really don't think gas is going to stay at $1.99) And I have a 4Runner, it's V8, if I get 18 I'm doing pretty damn good. (and even with a 25 gallon tank, I'm pretty happy if I can go 325 miles between fill ups.)

The point being, if you go from a 4Runner, or a Yukon, or anything named after a mountain range, to a RAV4, or some other smaller car, there is room for big savings.
4Runner drives nice, I would keep it. There are no big savings unless you put ton of mileage but if we are taking about 12k a year it will take years to see any savings. Also in this pandemic I have not been putting many miles in the past 5 months or so with my two inefficient cars and from the looks it it will stay like that until next Summer at least. I am going to bet that there is 0% chance that gas will be going up to $4.00 a gallon any time soon.

But if you like numbers lets see:

I don't know the details but lets say your 4Runner is in great shape and you sure you can drive 5 more years with minimal maintanence. Gas stays at $3 and you drive 12k a year

4Runner (Worth $15k):
$10k in gas (@$3 a gallon) for next 5 years and you sell it for say $9k (40% 5 year depreciation) = $10k + 6k (sale difference after 5 years) = $16k total lost

Prime ($40k OTD - 15k trade in 25k cash)
$0 to run it on EV only with free electricity for 5 years and it depreciated to $24k resale value (40% 5 year depreciation), $16k total lost

Ok, there maybe some maintenance cost, but we are doing rough estimates anyway and you can use your own numbers.

Bottom line there are no immediate savings even with free electricity with average mileage. Also we may see some needed advancements in battery tech in 5 year time that will drive the value down on all current electrics quite a bit. Heck Tesla is about to announce that this September Elon Musk announces a new date for Tesla 'Battery Day' showcase for technology that could reshape the EV market

So Prime is only good if you want to have some fun, savings... not so much
 

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4Runner drives nice, I would keep it. There are no big savings unless you put ton of mileage but if we are taking about 12k a year it will take years to see any savings. Also in this pandemic I have not been putting many miles in the past 5 months or so with my two inefficient cars and from the looks it it will stay like that until next Summer at least. I am going to bet that there is 0% chance that gas will be going up to $4.00 a gallon any time soon.

But if you like numbers lets see:

I don't know the details but lets say your 4Runner is in great shape and you sure you can drive 5 more years with minimal maintanence. Gas stays at $3 and you drive 12k a year

4Runner (Worth $15k):
$10k in gas (@$3 a gallon) for next 5 years and you sell it for say $9k (40% 5 year depreciation) = $10k + 6k (sale difference after 5 years) = $16k total lost

Prime ($40k OTD - 15k trade in 25k cash)
$0 to run it on EV only with free electricity for 5 years and it depreciated to $24k resale value (40% 5 year depreciation), $16k total lost

Ok, there maybe some maintenance cost, but we are doing rough estimates anyway and you can use your own numbers.

Bottom line there are no immediate savings even with free electricity with average mileage. Also we may see some needed advancements in battery tech in 5 year time that will drive the value down on all current electrics quite a bit. Heck Tesla is about to announce that this September Elon Musk announces a new date for Tesla 'Battery Day' showcase for technology that could reshape the EV market

So Prime is only good if you want to have some fun, savings... not so much
This is the laziest estimate ever. You underestimate new car depreciation, overprice the RAV4 by about 6k, and assume all miles on free power. Nevertheless...if it's remotely close who wants to drive an old car when they can have a newer faster one for the same cost?
 

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This is the laziest estimate ever. You underestimate new car depreciation, overprice the RAV4 by about 6k, and assume all miles on free power.
40% depreciation in 5 years is right in line for Toyota. I did not overprice Rav4, this was roughly OTD with tax after credit on a loaded XSE Prime.(Actually I might have underpriced it) If you can give me all the numbers I can estimate in full detail otherwise there are way too many variables and numbers and everyone's situation is unique so it's basically "plug your own numbers". I was roughly estimating given the data with "free miles on solar and driving 12k miles".

Nevertheless...if it's remotely close who wants to drive an old car when they can have a newer faster one for the same cost?
If you ask that every 5 years, then what savings are we talking about?
 

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Hey guys, I am pretty new here, but wanted to share some info with you. I have my sight on a regular 2020/2021 XSE Hybrid Blueprint Tech, so visited my local dealer (Jim Pattison Toyota Victoria) here on Vancouver Island, B.C Canada to inquire about one and to run some numbers. In the course of my discussion with a sales person we talked about upcoming RAV4 Prime and he said that the earliest allocation they got is for January of 2022 (and no this is not a typo). He said that all initial Primes in Canada are being distributed to Quebec by special agreement between Quebec government and Toyota Canada.
 

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Another great video from Alex on Autos:


A few highlights:

The Prime is lifted about 1.5" higher so the ground clearance is similar. There's a good shot of the underside, including the battery and fuel tank.

There's a strange discussion on the power capabilities of the battery. Which is an important consideration, as the battery needs to supply significantly more power to the motors so there's sure to be some upgrades there. But then he says it's only capable of supplying >100 hp (while the Hybrid was 20-30 hp). But 100 hp isn't nearly enough for all the electric motors in that thing: MG2 alone is 180 hp, not to mention the 54 hp MGR and probably some more for MG1. I wonder if he's hinting that the primary limitation for EV mode is the battery, not the motors. That would be a shame.

There's a discussion of the heat pump system. I think I saw a slight difference under the hood, so maybe that's what I saw.

HV mode fuel economy is 38 MPG. So, a slight reduction like some suspected.

A comparison of the loss of cargo space in the rear. It's not much at all, about 0.5 inch higher.

Tow hooks in the front.

Discussion on pricing. We've beat that dead horse enough in here so I'll leave it at that.
 

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Hey guys, I am pretty new here, but wanted to share some info with you. I have my sight on a regular 2020/2021 XSE Hybrid Blueprint Tech, so visited my local dealer (Jim Pattison Toyota Victoria) here on Vancouver Island, B.C Canada to inquire about one and to run some numbers. In the course of my discussion with a sales person we talked about upcoming RAV4 Prime and he said that the earliest allocation they got is for January of 2022 (and no this is not a typo). He said that all initial Primes in Canada are being distributed to Quebec by special agreement between Quebec government and Toyota Canada.
Thanks for the info! I was wondering what would happen in B.C. since last time I've read a comment from toyota canada about the prime availability they said "quebec first". It used to be B.C. and quebec. I guess that explains it. I'm not so surprised, my understanding is that in canada only quebec will give back money to the buyers. The Rav4 Prime SE will be more than 45000$, making it inadmissible to any subsidies in canada outside quebec. If that's right, it will come as a shock to quebec buyers as well as that would reduce the rebate from 13k$ to 8k$ for us. Still, it's nice to be getting them.
 

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Another great video from Alex on Autos:

There's a strange discussion on the power capabilities of the battery. Which is an important consideration, as the battery needs to supply significantly more power to the motors so there's sure to be some upgrades there. But then he says it's only capable of supplying >100 hp (while the Hybrid was 20-30 hp). But 100 hp isn't nearly enough for all the electric motors in that thing: MG2 alone is 180 hp, not to mention the 54 hp MGR and probably some more for MG1. I wonder if he's hinting that the primary limitation for EV mode is the battery, not the motors. That would be a shame.
Based on some of the info that's come out of Japan, I recently ran some numbers.
We know the total output is 302 hp. Toyota says that that's that's combination of the engine and the battery. We know the engine is 176hp. So we know that the battery "hp" is at least 126. And that also suggests that the battery is the limiting factor for the power in electric drive.

We know the rear motor is 54hp. So the "front" of the car is producing 248hp. 176hp is from the engine, so the rest is from the battery. So, 248 - 176 is 72 hp (from the battery).

So:
full gas power:
Engine 176
Rear adds 54
So 72 hp need to be added to the front via MG2
Total 302 hp

Since MG2 is 180 hp, we can also infer that MG1 need be no bigger than 108hp. (because what would be the point.) But if MG1 is 108, the total electric power would be 108 + 180 + 54 = 244 hp. Possible, I suppose. But using an online calculator suggest that it's more likely that the electric HP is about 163. (based on weight and specified acceleration numbers.) So this would suggest that MG1 is more like 80hp, just as a reasonable proportion to MG2. But really, it's just a guess.
 

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Hey guys, I am pretty new here, but wanted to share some info with you. I have my sight on a regular 2020/2021 XSE Hybrid Blueprint Tech, so visited my local dealer (Jim Pattison Toyota Victoria) here on Vancouver Island, B.C Canada to inquire about one and to run some numbers. In the course of my discussion with a sales person we talked about upcoming RAV4 Prime and he said that the earliest allocation they got is for January of 2022 (and no this is not a typo). He said that all initial Primes in Canada are being distributed to Quebec by special agreement between Quebec government and Toyota Canada.
Just saw this on the Prime Facebook site,(Toyota RAV4 Prime - Plug-In Hybrid) I have no confirmation of this with my dealer...........so far.
""So Panasonic is the limiting factor here. They are making the batteries for the Prime, and was previously committed to filling TESLA battery orders before TESLA started building their own because Panasonic were too slow. My brother who works for Panasonic in Japan reports they can't source enough lithium and other components to develop enough Prime batteries for Toyota. It might take a few years for Panasonic to catch up with battery demand. However i suspect Toyota will have to find a new source for Prime batteries just like TESLA did.""
 

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Lets talk about the converter which is needed. Batterys will give anytime enough amperes out, but those converters has limits. RAV4 Prime has somekind of booster converter .
 

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Thanks for the info! I was wondering what would happen in B.C. since last time I've read a comment from toyota canada about the prime availability they said "quebec first". It used to be B.C. and quebec. I guess that explains it. I'm not so surprised, my understanding is that in canada only quebec will give back money to the buyers. The Rav4 Prime SE will be more than 45000$, making it inadmissible to any subsidies in canada outside quebec. If that's right, it will come as a shock to quebec buyers as well as that would reduce the rebate from 13k$ to 8k$ for us. Still, it's nice to be getting them.
No problem! I knew people will want to know. He did mentioned that Toyota Canada dropped B.C for now in order to exclusively focus on Quebec due to Quebec`s rebates for EV and PHEV vehicles and an agreement Toyota has with Quebec to introduce any EV or PHEV in Quebec first. I had my eye on the Prime but its long unavailability and 'Lexus' pricing is too much for me, so I will stick with waiting for the XSE Hybrid for 9 months .
 

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Based on some of the info that's come out of Japan, I recently ran some numbers.
We know the total output is 302 hp. Toyota says that that's that's combination of the engine and the battery. We know the engine is 176hp. So we know that the battery "hp" is at least 126. And that also suggests that the battery is the limiting factor for the power in electric drive.

We know the rear motor is 54hp. So the "front" of the car is producing 248hp. 176hp is from the engine, so the rest is from the battery. So, 248 - 176 is 72 hp (from the battery).

So:
full gas power:
Engine 176
Rear adds 54
So 72 hp need to be added to the front via MG2
Total 302 hp

Since MG2 is 180 hp, we can also infer that MG1 need be no bigger than 108hp. (because what would be the point.) But if MG1 is 108, the total electric power would be 108 + 180 + 54 = 244 hp. Possible, I suppose. But using an online calculator suggest that it's more likely that the electric HP is about 163. (based on weight and specified acceleration numbers.) So this would suggest that MG1 is more like 80hp, just as a reasonable proportion to MG2. But really, it's just a guess.
FYI, you can't just add horsepower like that. What gets reported is the peak horsepower, but really any motor has a power/speed curve, like in this diagram:

154090


With a gas engine, we use gearing to keep the engine at the peak RPM for power, so the peak horsepower is a somewhat useful number. But a hybrid also has electric motors, and those have fixed gears. Now, you'd think that the peak horsepower for the system would be the speed where the electric motor peaks (because gearing), but things get very complex when you throw a power split device in the mix. On top of that, MGR has its own power/speed curve and probably peaks at a completely different RPM than the rest of the system. Toyota actually makes a FWD version of the RAV4 Hybrid for the European market, and interestingly enough the peak horsepower is the exact same as the AWD (though the 0-100 kph is improved, so it's certainly doing something).

I'd love to get a RAV4 (both hybrid and prime) on a dynamometer to see what the real curve looks like. It must be incredible.
 

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...Toyota actually makes a FWD version of the RAV4 Hybrid for the European market, and interestingly enough the peak horsepower is the exact same as the AWD (though the 0-100 kph is improved, so it's certainly doing something).
NOT true. The FWD has a 2.0L engine and produces 175 HP; the AWD-I has the 2.5L engine with 222HP combined.
 

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FWD = 20.6km/L~
AWD = 21.4km/L~
PRIME= 22,2 km/L~

These are WLTC numbers and they fugire the normal hybrid mode driving.
 

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FYI, you can't just add horsepower like that. What gets reported is the peak horsepower, but really any motor has a power/speed curve, like in this diagram:
I'm not really sure just what you are saying. Do I need to preface my post with "I believe that Toyota is not lying about the RAV4 Prime being 302 hp"? Toyota could claim that the car has 180 + 176 + 54 = 410hp. But they don't, so I believe the 302 number that they put out is what Toyota believes the car is producing during peak output. I suppose one could argue about brake hp, shaft hp, hp delivered to the wheels, etc.. I suppose the gearing could be such that peak output of the car occurs at some situation other than peak gas engine output. For instance, where the engine is producing, say, 97hp, MG2 is producing 151 and rear axle is producing 54 hp. Acutally, hp at the rear axle could be interesting. While it might be producing huge amounts of torque when starting off the line, given the very low rpm, it's unlikely that it's producing 54hp. Running at 1% max speed, it's not going to produce 10,000% torque. But what about at 10% speed? 1,000% torque? Maybe not unreasonable.

Putting it on a dyno would be very interesting, you are right.
 
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