[cometguy]

Seems the problem is that the tach really has no value as we move toward an EV world.

It has value in a PHEV. Here's a photo from my PHEV, with labels describing what's shown. This is a much-better-thought-out instrument panel than is what is in Toyota Hybrids (and Primes, from what I can see), as it's very clear and really let's the driver know what's-what. Note that the gas tank is about 88% full, even after driving 290 miles of local driving (since my last fill-up on gasoline, some three weeks earlier) in which I plugged in every night in my garage, and the computed fuel consumption over this range was 98.4 mpg. This is why we are excited about the RAV4 Prime, with nearly double the range of my 2018 PHEV, but I wish that the Toyota instrument gauges were more practical and useful to the driver.

Below is what it looks like when I'm in all-electric mode and braking, so that the regen braking is charging the battery (lights at bottom light up to the right side when the battery pack is charging). Yes, it's possible to both charge the battery pack and use the battery pack for power at the same time, also. The photo below was taken at night, so you can't see the E-POWER and CHARGE labels at the bottom of the dial. The tachometer is a regular analog tach, but the rest is digital.

And below is a daytime photo of the tach in my PHEV when driving with the engine on (and electric motor off, as the engine here is charging the battery pack at my direction):

 

[Pilot1226]

Oof, if you're going to hit me with a $50k sticker on a RAV4 Prime, I'd might as well go do the Tesla Model Y pre-order.

 

[RAV4PRIMEshopper]

Oof, if you're going to hit me with a $50k sticker on a RAV4 Prime, I'd might as well go do the Tesla Model Y pre-order.

That reaction right there is why I think it'll top out at $45k. Regardless of the Hybrid's feelings.

 

[toyodaornot]

Oof, if you're going to hit me with a $50k sticker on a RAV4 Prime, I'd might as well go do the Tesla Model Y pre-order.

$50k is for fully loaded XSE, my guess base SE would be at $45k. Try to spec out Tesla Y, midrange barebone AWD is $52k or $50k after tax credit, vs potential price on Prime XSE trim for $42.5k after tax credit. Still going for Model Y?

That reaction right there is why I think it'll top out at $45k. Regardless of the Hybrid's feelings.

$45k probably for SE trim. Nothing to do with feelings, just plain economics. What would be incentive to buy hybrid if it would be more $$$ then Prime?

 

[Bamm1]

$50k is for fully loaded XSE, my guess base SE would be at $45k.

$45k probably for SE trim. Nothing to do with feelings, just plain economics. What would be incentive to buy hybrid if it would be more $$$ then Prime?

So Toyota's pricing structure is going to be such that their "highest trim / full loaded" compact (RAV4 Prime XSE + Premium Package + Adaptive Front Lighting) and mid-size (Highland Hybrid Limited Platinum) SUV's will essentially have the same asking price (~ $50k)?

Is there any other manufacturer where that is the case?

Also, depending on what state you live in, at $50K, a large chunk of the EV incentive will be eaten up by sales tax (places like PA, NJ, DC come to mind). Maybe I am missing something?

 

[toyodaornot]

So Toyota's pricing structure is going to be such that their "highest trim / full loaded" compact (RAV4 Prime XSE + Premium Package + Adaptive Front Lighting) and mid-size (Highland Hybrid Limited Platinum) SUV's will essentially have the same asking price (~ $50k)?

Is there any other manufacturer where that is the case?

Yeah, it will be tough to price Prime without butchering sales of their top trims for either Rav4 or Highlander. At least with Highlander you get more "utility" though

Also, depending on what state you live in, at $50K, a large chunk of the EV incentive will be eaten up by sales tax (places like PA, NJ, DC come to mind). Maybe I am missing something?

Large chunk? If your sales tax say 10% that's a difference of $500 between 45k and 50k...

 

[mikefocke]

And the Model y will have no federal tax incentive next year per Elon.

 

[RAV4 Prime]

FWIW, here's the pricing situation for the Prius Prime:

• You pay a $2,340 premium for the Prius Prime (e.g., Prius LE: $25,410; Prius Prime LE: $27,750)
• The Federal EV Tax Credit for the Prius Prime is $4,502)

After the tax credit, the Prius Prime LE PHEV is $2,162 cheaper before tax than the Prius LE hybrid (i.e., $4,502 - $2,340).

It may not be an apples-to-apples comparison for the RAV4 Prime (i.e., does the RAV4 Prime XSE include more standard equipment than the RAV4 XSE Hybrid?), but this example gives us Toyota's PHEV pricing strategy for the Prius.

 

[Bamm1]

Yeah, it will be tough to price Prime without butchering sales of their top trims for either Rav4 or Highlander. At least with Highlander you get more "utility" though

I can't see Toyota landing on having their "loaded" compact SUV and "loaded" 3-row SUV costing the same amount. With "utility" being just one of the myriad of reasons why.

Large chunk? If your sales tax say 10% that's a difference of $500 between 45k and 50k...

I feel like Toyota padding the price 5K more because of the EV incentive is disingenuous in light of the sales tax component. The notion that "its really only ~2K more than the regular Hybrid after the incentive" is simply not true.

The "real" final prices are very different. 42K for a compact SUV is much more palatable than 47.5K for the same compact SUV.

I see Toyota making more money if they can move LOTS of "loaded" Primes at ~41K after the incentive than selling far fewer with a higher profit margin at ~46K after the incentive.

 

[toyodaornot]

I can't see Toyota landing on having their "loaded" compact SUV and "loaded" 3-row SUV costing the same amount. With "utility" being just one of the myriad of reasons why.



I feel like Toyota padding the price 5K more because of the EV incentive is disingenuous in light of the sales tax component. The notion that "its really only ~2K more than the regular Hybrid after the incentive" is simply not true.

The "real" final prices are very different. 42K for a compact SUV is much more palatable than 47.5K for the same compact SUV.

I see Toyota making more money if they can move LOTS of "loaded" Primes at ~41K after the incentive than selling far fewer with a higher profit margin at ~46K after the incentive.

I think you are confused since we are talking about the same thing, fully loaded XSE Prime with $1-2k price premium over loaded Hybrid Limited (after tax break), hence the full msrp price somewhere at $50k

 

[Pilot1226]

Yeah, I think there's more to play here than we're leading on, thanks to Federal and State incentives.

@toyodaornot - In reference to the comments above about sales tax; in NJ, there is no sales tax on an EV vehicle. That means I don't pay 6.625% on the entire sale. I've priced out a Model Y to my specifications and I'm looking at $52,000. That saves $3250 as a whole. True, there's no more Federal Tax Credit, and the Toyota potentially does offer the $7500 rebate. Subtracting the $3250, you're still "ahead of the game" by $4,250 after paying the sales tax. But - your finance payments and interest are based off that full amount. You have to wait until the following year's tax refund in order to "get" your money for it. So, I suppose there is a slight opportunity cost associated with that, since you could take your "sales tax" savings of $3250 and putting it into a bank, CD, stock or whatever you want.

@mikefocke - As far as I know, after December 31 of this year, all Teslas are no longer eligible for the FTC as they've sold whatever the limit of units is.

If you would have looked around a few years ago when Teslas first hit the market, I believe that there were absolutely "growing pains" with the electrification along highways. But, as I've learned in the last couple months getting really "into" shopping for a PHEV/BEV, I've discovered that they're everywhere around me. Everyone's location is a little different, and I'm really close to the NYC metro area in Northern NJ, but there are at least 3 Superchargers within 20 miles of my house if I needed it, and there are more Superchargers half way between my house and the shore areas I like to go in the summer, and another one nearby the summer shore areas off the main toll highway. I'm covered.

Again, one of the perks to a Tesla or other BEV is that you're always leaving your house with a "full tank" - so the range anxiety argument is being managed right out of the gate. And if for some reason I can't charge down the shore or at a relative's house overnight, I do have Supercharger options on the way back towards my work. Sure, it's inconvenient to have to stop at a Supercharger and wait ~15-30 minutes to recharge, but the V3 Superchargers are able to push the equivalent of 500 miles per hour of charging in the lower states of charge, tapering closer to the 200/hr rate near the higher states of charge. So, if for some reason I'm really low on range, I can stop for 15-20 minutes and get enough charge to get me to work and then home later to hit my home charger. I've spent 15 minutes waiting for gasoline at times, and sometimes even longer under regular fillups, meaning not-involved with a snow or weather event (Costco lines).

I honestly see Toyota and other manufacturers eventually skipping the "mild hybrid" option altogether in a few years and basically doing PHEV's. Then, start to phase out ICE's or increase their price so they are not as attractive of an option. Then, introduce BEV's.

 

[toyodaornot]

Yeah, I think there's more to play here than we're leading on, thanks to Federal and State incentives.

@toyodaornot - In reference to the comments above about sales tax; in NJ, there is no sales tax on an EV vehicle. That means I don't pay 6.625% on the entire sale. I've priced out a Model Y to my specifications and I'm looking at $52,000. That saves $3250 as a whole. True, there's no more Federal Tax Credit, and the Toyota potentially does offer the $7500 rebate. Subtracting the $3250, you're still "ahead of the game" by $4,250 after paying the sales tax. But - your finance payments and interest are based off that full amount. You have to wait until the following year's tax refund in order to "get" your money for it. So, I suppose there is a slight opportunity cost associated with that, since you could take your "sales tax" savings of $3250 and putting it into a bank, CD, stock or whatever you want.

I am not getting the point, but lets say the cost of Model Y AWD and Prime XSE is identical after all incentives/credits/no tax and both will be out same time in Summer. Which one would you pick? For me Rav4 Prime is solid choice since I want to keep the car for 10 years and I can easily take it on road trips as well as daily driver, for Tesla I don't trust longevity and repair costs for 10 years and long distance trips are still going to be a chore with charging.

 

[RAVDoug]

FWIW, here's the pricing situation for the Prius Prime:

• You pay a $2,340 premium for the Prius Prime (e.g., Prius LE: $25,410; Prius Prime LE: $27,750)
• The Federal EV Tax Credit for the Prius Prime is $4,502)

After the tax credit, the Prius Prime LE PHEV is $2,162 cheaper before tax than the Prius LE hybrid (i.e., $4,502 - $2,340).

It may not be an apples-to-apples comparison for the RAV4 Prime (i.e., does the RAV4 Prime XSE include more standard equipment than the RAV4 XSE Hybrid?), but this example gives us Toyota's PHEV pricing strategy for the Prius.

The best comparison is probably the SE Prime vs the XSE Hybrid. They actually have similar options and equipment, except for the extra horsepower you get with the Prime.

I think Toyota is likely to do a similar pricing strategy for the RAV4 Prime as they do with the Prius Prime: more expensive, but slightly cheaper after the tax cut. The extra horsepower that comes with the RAV4 Prime should bump up the price a bit more, too, but it also has a larger credit so that's fine. My guess is it'll be about $6000 more than the equivalently equipped hybrid model, which will still allow customers to come out ahead after tax credits while getting an awesome car and saving money in the long term as well.

The 2020 XSE Hybrid is $34,050, the 2021 will probably up that by a couple hundred more, adding $6k puts the SE Prime at around $40,250. Which opens up the possibility that Toyota prices this aggressively, bringing the number below $40k just for the marketing. Or we can round up to $41k (which is what I did in an earlier comment).

 

[LunarRock_Rav19]

Wrong, buying anything new means new manufacturing means pollution. It is just that more pollution happens initially. However, EVs, over its lifetime, creates less pollution, esp less pollution where you live. Besides, the old car just gets sold to someone else, who will continue to 'amortize' the pollution cost while creating more pollution, of course.

I’m not wrong. That’s essentially what I was saying. ANY new car production creates pollution!!!! Yes, EVs do create less pollution depending on who you talk to about the topic. Some would argue that producing the battery alone creates just as much pollution as a regular ICE car. I’m not exactly sure, I’m not claiming to be an expert.
Whether people like it or not; used cars are going to be around for a lot longer. Many people can’t afford a brand new car. The ICE engine probably won’t be completely gone in 5 years. There are also other things that people can do that help with lessening pollution. Recycle more, reuse packaging, don’t waste water, turn off lights when not in use, car pool, etc. Pollution isn’t just about ICE engines, as I’m sure many are aware of. I know there is all this talk about the RAV4 Prime, but no one is going to save the planet by owning one. If it makes people think that they are helping, then Toyota’s marketing team is successful at making people take the bait. Toyota lines their pockets with more $$$$$.

 

[cometguy]

@mikefocke But, as I've learned in the last couple months getting really "into" shopping for a PHEV/BEV, I've discovered that they're everywhere around me. Everyone's location is a little different, and I'm really close to the NYC metro area in Northern NJ, but there are at least 3 Superchargers within 20 miles of my house if I needed it, and there are more Superchargers half way between my house and the shore areas I like to go in the summer, and another one nearby the summer shore areas off the main toll highway. I'm covered.

Again, one of the perks to a Tesla or other BEV is that you're always leaving your house with a "full tank" - so the range anxiety argument is being managed right out of the gate. And if for some reason I can't charge down the shore or at a relative's house overnight, I do have Supercharger options on the way back towards my work. Sure, it's inconvenient to have to stop at a Supercharger and wait ~15-30 minutes to recharge, but the V3 Superchargers are able to push the equivalent of 500 miles per hour of charging in the lower states of charge, tapering closer to the 200/hr rate near the higher states of charge. So, if for some reason I'm really low on range, I can stop for 15-20 minutes and get enough charge to get me to work and then home later to hit my home charger. I've spent 15 minutes waiting for gasoline at times, and sometimes even longer under regular fillups, meaning not-involved with a snow or weather event (Costco lines).

I honestly see Toyota and other manufacturers eventually skipping the "mild hybrid" option altogether in a few years and basically doing PHEV's. Then, start to phase out ICE's or increase their price so they are not as attractive of an option. Then, introduce BEV's.

I, too, am starting just this year to look more seriously at BEVs. I bought a PHEV last year, and we're planning to buy the RAV4 Prime this coming summer (unless the SE trim is over $40k, in which case we may look elsewhere besides Toyota). Here in the northeast, we also see lots of BEVs on the road -- mainly Teslas, of course -- and one of our friends has a Model S that he raves about, and I've talked to him at length about how he never has range anxiety because he can charge at home most of the time. Regarding leaving your home with a "full tank", most people with BEVs drive locally and thus under 50 miles/day, so don't need to charge every night -- and those who do charge every night are just "topping off".

But I'm very disappointed that Toyota is so late to the PHEV and BEV game (their recently introduced Prius Prime notwithstanding). Actually, I'm hearing that other automakers are actually planning to increase their number of models with "mild hybrids" like the plain Prius and like the RAV4 Hybrid, but I'm personally uninterested in such vehicles because I want to have much more all-electric range than mild hybrids can offer, I want the additional torque and power that PHEVs naturally offer, and I want to be able to control when I'm in all-electric mode, or in true hybrid mode, or in charging-the-battery-pack-off-the-engine mode, or using both electric motor and engine simultaneously. Plus, you can't get any tax credits or government rebates for non-plugin vehicles. (Plus, AWD in the RAV4 Hybrid -- and Prime, sadly -- is not as robust as the AWD in the ICE-only RAV4, because you only have the weaker electric motors running the rear axle. So this is another reason for me to not want to get a RAV4 Hybrid that doesn't plug in, because at least with the Prime, you have so many other advantages over the simply Hybrid that helps to make up for the inferior AWD system. In my PHEV, I have a system in which both the electric motors and the ICE power all four wheels, so that AWD that isn't off-kilter between the front and rear axles; but I don't expect Toyota to go that route.)

I get why car manufacturers are into increasing their mild hybrids, because many people cannot plug in at night (especially those living in apartments or those not having a garage -- of which there are many tens of millions). And I'd also love to know how much/hard dealerships are lobbying manufacturers to not come out with BEVs because they will eat away at their service department because of their much lower needed maintenance. Lots of complex issues at play here. We keep three cars in our household, and I'm ready to have two of them be PHEVs and one of them be a BEV.

Nobody is going to save the planet by doing anything -- it's a team effort. We can all do our part to help, and I think that those of us that try hard by getting plugin vehicles and cutting down on gasoline consumption can have fun doing so while knowing that we aren't contributing to air pollution as much as people with ICE-only vehicles are. Committing a crime just because you can get away with it doesn't make it right or good.

 

[Bamm1]

I think you are confused since we are talking about the same thing, fully loaded XSE Prime with $1-2k price premium over loaded Hybrid Limited (after tax break), hence the full msrp price somewhere at $50k

I think I am confused as to how setting the price at 50K is the same as 1K over a loaded limited hybrid after the tax credit.

Fully Loaded XSE Prime $50,000
Tax 7% +$3500
EV Tax Credit -$7500
Total: $46,000

Hybrid Limited w/ Adv Tech + Cold Weather + Adaptive Headlights + 7% tax: $43,000

That is 3K, not 1-2K.

The fully loaded RAV4 XSE Prime is going to have to come in a few K under 50 to comfortably hit 45K or less after the rebate.

I still maintain that Toyota will not put loaded compact SUV's and loaded 3-row SUV's on dealer lots with Monroneys within 1K of each other.

 

[toyodaornot]

I think I am confused as to how setting the price at 50K is the same as 1K over a loaded limited hybrid after the tax credit.

Fully Loaded XSE Prime $50,000
Tax 7% +$3500
EV Tax Credit -$7500
Total: $46,000

Hybrid Limited w/ Adv Tech + Cold Weather + Adaptive Headlights + 7% tax: $43,000

That is 3K, not 1-2K.

The fully loaded RAV4 XSE Prime is going to have to come in a few K under 50 to comfortably hit 45K or less after the rebate.

I still maintain that Toyota will not put loaded compact SUV's and loaded 3-row SUV's on dealer lots with Monroneys within 1K of each other.

I am not including tax in the estimates, this is varies for all states and some don't even pay tax also there are rebates happening, so going by rough msrp - full EV tax credit +/- 1-2 grand margin of error

Loaded XSE Prime - 50k msrp -7.5k = 42.5k msrp
Loaded Hybrid Limited - 40k msrp

there is the 2.5k msrp difference

 

[Pilot1226]

I am not getting the point, but lets say the cost of Model Y AWD and Prime XSE is identical after all incentives/credits/no tax and both will be out same time in Summer. Which one would you pick? For me Rav4 Prime is solid choice since I want to keep the car for 10 years and I can easily take it on road trips as well as daily driver, for Tesla I don't trust longevity and repair costs for 10 years and long distance trips are still going to be a chore with charging.

See, that's a tough one. I believe the Tesla has less maintenance costs. Let's face it - ICE cars start to fall apart after 10 years. They're going to require repairs to Oxygen Sensors, Catalytic Converters, amongst other things (including things that are found in Teslas also like shocks)… But I believe that the "motor" components of the Tesla will outlast the wear-and-tear of an automatic transmission and internal combustion engine. There are no spark plugs, no fuel injectors, oil changes, transmission fluid, no exhaust components that you mention. Of course, things will break - they're just machines - but it seems like the Tesla has an edge here.

I'm in a different perspective, I guess, because my wife has a third-row SUV. Her daily driver is our family vacation car. I wouldn't take my car - be the RAV4 Prime or the Model Y - on vacation with us, hers is going to be the go-to either way. This doesn't have to REPLACE all my long-range means of transportation. And I don't think charging is a chore - I usually need to use the restroom or eat after ~4-5 hours of driving anyway. That usually takes 15-30 (or more) minutes to do including filling up the gas tank while I'm stopping. The Tesla chargers are so fast that you're looking at 80% charge in what, 45 minutes? Maybe less at the V3 chargers? That's substantial. I'm sure I can watch some car videos on YouTube for 15 minutes if I had to. I already have a hypothetical plan in place from commuting from the shore areas to work in the summer: Leave about 30 minutes earlier, charge for about 15-20 as needed, and get to work.

Regarding leaving your home with a "full tank", most people with BEVs drive locally and thus under 50 miles/day, so don't need to charge every night -- and those who do charge every night are just "topping off".

Nobody is going to save the planet by doing anything -- it's a team effort. We can all do our part to help, and I think that those of us that try hard by getting plugin vehicles and cutting down on gasoline consumption can have fun doing so while knowing that we aren't contributing to air pollution as much as people with ICE-only vehicles are. Committing a crime just because you can get away with it doesn't make it right or good.

It's no joke I'm definitely on "Team Tesla" at this point, so I'll point out he's said publicly many times that they should be charged every single day. Just like a cell phone or laptop. Sure, it COULD go multiple days without, but you can probably get it plugged in and charging in less than a minute once you know the procedure. I'm one of the local people - I drive 20 miles round trip, and MAYBE another 10-20 around town a few days a week with the kids for sports, school, etc. But that's it - longer trips and we'll do a family trip in my wife's car anyway since it's bigger.

Elon's said for long-term battery longevity that people should charge to around 80% state of charge every night and not more - unless they know they're going to need it. There are some instances of battery degradation but this appears to be tied to people that literally run 100% to under 5% and use a Supercharger which has high amperage and isn't great for the long-term health of the battery. This is compounded by people in Model S and Model X's that have free, unlimited Supercharging for life as a perk when they bought the car. People have done tests and found that when they schedule the charge to hit 90-95-100% of the charge right before they leave in the morning if they know that they're going to need the extra 10-20% range that it's a reduced impact on the battery, and also not to EXCLUSIVELY use Superchargers.

So for someone like me, that commutes 5 days a week at 80% charge for battery longevity, but leaves home on Friday with a 90% or even 95% charge (270 mile approx. range), arrives at work, and drives to the beach areas for the weekend (another 50 miles away), I'm still looking at enough charge to return to work on Monday morning, I'm still looking at around 150-160 miles remaining. I could make another return trip to the beach area and back to work and still be around 40-50 miles. Sure, it's not ideal, but I could do it and not have to worry about charging it... and if I did charge it at my destination, I'd have that much more range...

Even a standard outlet plugged in overnight would offset around 5 miles per hour of range - so if I arrived at the beach area around 6 pm and didn't have to leave for a few days - you're looking at pretty much 48 * 5 = 240 miles of recovery...

 

[toyodaornot]

See, that's a tough one. I believe the Tesla has less maintenance costs. Let's face it - ICE cars start to fall apart after 10 years. They're going to require repairs to Oxygen Sensors, Catalytic Converters, amongst other things (including things that are found in Teslas also like shocks)… But I believe that the "motor" components of the Tesla will outlast the wear-and-tear of an automatic transmission and internal combustion engine. There are no spark plugs, no fuel injectors, oil changes, transmission fluid, no exhaust components that you mention. Of course, things will break - they're just machines - but it seems like the Tesla has an edge here.

I'm in a different perspective, I guess, because my wife has a third-row SUV. Her daily driver is our family vacation car. I wouldn't take my car - be the RAV4 Prime or the Model Y - on vacation with us, hers is going to be the go-to either way. This doesn't have to REPLACE all my long-range means of transportation. And I don't think charging is a chore - I usually need to use the restroom or eat after ~4-5 hours of driving anyway. That usually takes 15-30 (or more) minutes to do including filling up the gas tank while I'm stopping. The Tesla chargers are so fast that you're looking at 80% charge in what, 45 minutes? Maybe less at the V3 chargers? That's substantial. I'm sure I can watch some car videos on YouTube for 15 minutes if I had to. I already have a hypothetical plan in place from commuting from the shore areas to work in the summer: Leave about 30 minutes earlier, charge for about 15-20 as needed, and get to work.

Maybe if you put a lot of miles, I certainly don't and maintenance costs are minimal... Last car Mitsubishi which I had for 12 years and 90k miles had brakes replacement, battery replacement, tires and fluids, so I expect this will be the same with rav4, but just in case I did get 8 year warranty.

Btw the other thing I don't like about Tesla 3/Y is lack of buttons and most controls are done through the big screen. You can tell it's designed that "autopilot" would be used often so you can somewhat safely be distracted by the large screen to perform different operations. But that full autopilot feature is $7k price on top of $52k...

v3 is 80% at 40 minutes.... no thanks.... I will wait until "v10" chargers that can charge up 300 miles in 5 minutes tops

 

[Bamm1]

I am not including tax in the estimates, this is varies for all states and some don't even pay tax also there are rebates happening, so going by rough msrp - full EV tax credit +/- 1-2 grand margin of error

Loaded XSE Prime - 50k msrp -7.5k = 42.5k msrp
Loaded Hybrid Limited - 40k msrp

there is the 2.5k msrp difference

But I don't think Toyota can ignore sales tax when they set the price. They want it to sell well everywhere. Not just in places were the sales tax, State EV credits and Federal EV credits equation works out very favorably. So I think it needs to be taken into consideration for any price guesstimates.