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I can't speak for the Prius Prime or Ioniq PHEV, but our G2 Volt, even with battery fully depleted. It drives nearly identical aside for the slight ICE hum. It'll still merge safely onto any busy highway and happily maintain 80mph on the freeway with a fairly loaded car.
Exactly, I had G1 Volt and running on battery/gas had identical feel. I didn't do any 0-60 measurements at that time, but I've would have noticed if I had 44% less power
 

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Given I'm new to hybrids and PHEVs, I really appreciate the knowledge of this board, especially when there's a healthy give and take while keeping it civil. ;)
 

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44% reduction on Volt? Where are you getting these numbers and what do they really mean for 0-60?

The numbers come from simple physics. (Note, though, I got a number wrong, see edit.)

In the case of the Volt, it's pretty simple to understand. It's easiest to just think of it as an electric car, where the motors can either run off of the batteries or directly from an electric generator. If you want the full 149 hp, you need that much power to come from somewhere, and in this case it has to come from one of those two energy sources. If the battery is absolutely, completely drained then the only place you can get power from is the generator. Unfortunately, the maximum power the generator can produce is 101 hp. Thus, the maximum power you can get from the car in this situation is 101 hp. 48/149 is 32%.

I need to be very clear at this point: this is a loss of peak power, which is the only number that gets reported. In reality, power is a function of the car's speed, and in the case of an electric motor it looks like a parabola: 0 hp when stopped, reaching a peak at some other speed (maybe something like 60 mph, depending on how it's designed), and then dropping back down. With a gas engine the curve is slightly more complicated, and it's always paired with a transmission which can keep the engine at the right RPM for peak horsepower. This can get complicated quickly, and without putting the car on a dynamometer it's hard to say anything more. That's why I'm looking only at peak horsepower. The Volt is relatively simple, though, which makes it good for this discussion.

What I am NOT saying is that when the battery on the Volt is drained that it will feel 32% slower at all times.

The nice part about a series hybrid is that it can run the generator at peak horsepower, regardless of the needs of the electric motor. You can see what I mean when looking at a 0-60 situation. At the start, the electric motor isn't asking for peak horsepower. It's actually far less, because the car is going slow. But the generator can be run at maximum, easily supplying the needed power and probably some extra to store up. At some point, the motor gets fast enough to demand exactly what the generator is providing. No problem! If you keep accelerating, though ... now the generator can't keep up. But that's why it hopefully ran a bit heavy before, charging the battery to make up the difference. (Also important here is the speed where you reach peak horsepower: if it's high enough, you might never need more power than the generator provides in a 0-60 anyway.)

So, in a 0-60 you probably won't see much difference in performance.

It's also a relatively short burst of acceleration, all things considered. 9 seconds for the 0-60, and for most of that the generator is sufficient. Doing some back of the envelope calculations and making lots of assumptions, it needs to supplement with like 0.1% of your total battery capacity. The gauge might read 0, but there's still some left in there, because you want it to serve as a buffer, storing up a bit of excess power for short bursts like this. After a burst it will charge a bit to make up for it. The performance is still there, just not continuously.

Hills are a much better stress test of this situation than 0-60, IMO, as you can peg the system at peak power for longer. This will drain the battery, even with the generator running. At some point the battery can't keep up, and the only thing that can physically be done is reduce performance. Hence why they included a mountain mode for the Volt, which lets it charge up more aggressively when you're not at peak power so it can be used when needed.
 

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This section from the Volt's owner's manual is instructive:

Propulsion Power Messages

PROPULSION POWER IS REDUCED

This message displays when the propulsion power is reduced and can affect the ability to accelerate. If this message is on, but there is no reduction in performance, proceed to your destination. The performance may be reduced the next time the vehicle is driven. The vehicle may be driven at a reduced speed while this message is on, but maximum acceleration and speed may be reduced. If this message stays on when the malfunction indicator lamp is on, the vehicle should be taken to your dealer for service as soon as possible.

This message can display when the vehicle is parked during extreme cold conditions without plugging-in. While driving the vehicle with this message displayed, the vehicle speed may be reduced until the high voltage battery is conditioned.

This message can display when driving in mountainous terrain without using Mountain Mode or by not entering Mountain Mode soon enough to build a sufficient battery charge reserve before climbing steep grades. This is normal operation to protect the high voltage battery. Only if both the PROPULSION POWER IS REDUCED message and the malfunction indicator lamp are on should the vehicle be taken to the dealer for service.

While climbing the grade with this message displayed, the vehicle speed may be reduced until the engine can recover the battery state of charge to a normal level. See “Mountain Mode” under Driver Selected Operating Modes
Essentially, the battery has a certain reserve amount that allows for full power in most conditions, but can be depleted when climbing hills or from cold weather. This message is displayed when that reserve is depleted. If you're not seeing this message then there's enough reserve to maintain full performance, which is why the vehicle performs the same even when the battery is "empty."
 

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This section from the Volt's owner's manual is instructive:



Essentially, the battery has a certain reserve amount that allows for full power in most conditions, but can be depleted when climbing hills or from cold weather. This message is displayed when that reserve is depleted. If you're not seeing this message then there's enough reserve to maintain full performance, which is why the vehicle performs the same even when the battery is "empty."
This makes sense. The Volt has a 18.4kwh battery but only something like 14kwh is actually usable on a normal basis. The software probably lets you tap into some of that remaining ~4kwh before reducing propulsion.
 

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[Unfortunately] I have read every post in this thread...

I was enjoying all speculation until I saw ppl suggesting the Prime could be between 45-50k. Personally, that would completely turn me away at that price point as the tax credit would 'feel' non-existent. Hard to dish out 45k+ on a RAV4 when a couple Cybertruck trims are supposedly starting below that and just above that same price. Hopefully the Tesla CT pricing helps keep prices of PHEV/EV competition in check.

Many ppl here have made some good points for all sides of the cost argument...I'm going to remain hopeful that it doesn't break $42,900 fingers crossed
 

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42,900 would be a steal considering the $7500 rebate. That would literally make all the other car manufacturers shake in their boots.

Before I leased my Forester (Premium trim, one up from basemodel for those not familiar with Subaru), I did consider a Touring (top trim) or similarly equipped Limited (one down from top). These push nearly $40,000 - so if the Prime comes in at $35000 after rebate, that’s a big deal.

I’m trying to think if it’s worth it or not for my specific circumstance. I can always buy out my lease at the end, it’s a good car, my only complaint is that it’s not a hybrid (so the fuel economy in the city is not that great) and it doesn’t have Auto Lane Centering for highway jogs. (Has Lane Keep Assist though...)

But we are looking at a situation specific to me though, since if I bought a Prime it would be essentially paying “x” - (18500+7500) which is my lease buyout plus tax credit.

Since the RAV has all the “constraints” of a ICE car, I’m not sure I can justify the hypothetical 45-50k price over it. Everything else would be the same as my Subaru except the gas mileage which would be doubled (ish) in city.

it would take me a long time to make up the difference in fuel costs - even if it was double mileage. We are talking around 1.25-1.50 per gallon which is in reality $15ish dollars per week or $60 per month.

it would take an absurdly long time to make up that difference of $25000 worth of fuel at that rate. Might have to go all in on Tesla at this point.
 

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I would love to pay $42,900-tax credit for XSE trim, but I am being realistic they will price it somewhere between Mitsubishi PHEV GT $41.5k and Tesla Y mid range AWD $52k where both don't have full federal tax credit, so even with price range of $45k-$50k it would undercut competition with tax credit.
 

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[Unfortunately] I have read every post in this thread...

I was enjoying all speculation until I saw ppl suggesting the Prime could be between 45-50k. Personally, that would completely turn me away at that price point as the tax credit would 'feel' non-existent. Hard to dish out 45k+ on a RAV4 when a couple Cybertruck trims are supposedly starting below that and just above that same price. Hopefully the Tesla CT pricing helps keep prices of PHEV/EV competition in check.

Many ppl here have made some good points for all sides of the cost argument...I'm going to remain hopeful that it doesn't break $42,900 fingers crossed
The majority of folks on this forum and other non-Toyota forums feel that $45k is their personal cap and that it will also be Toyota's. We all have to remember it's still just a RAV4 underneath. While it WILL make nearly the perfect daily driver, it still lacks the feel of other cars in the $50k range.
 

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To be honest Toyota has always lacked the feel of cars in the same price range and even lower and the reason I've always avoided them yet they sell well, hold their value and been reliable.
 

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To be honest Toyota has always lacked the feel of cars in the same price range and even lower and the reason I've always avoided them yet they sell well, hold their value and been reliable.
Agreed. I've owned a number of cars and have always cross-shopped Toyota but never bought. Prelude vs Celica, Forester 2.5t vs RAV4 v6, CX-5 vs RAV4, BMW vs Lexus. This Prime just looks like it's going to be too good to pass up, and well ahead of everything in its class this time. I'm trying not to walk into a Toyota dealership and reserve one.
 

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I currently drive a 2018 Mazda6 GT Reserve (and a 2015 Mazda6 Touring before that)...I absolutely love Mazda -- the features, feel and look of the interior/exterior, how it drives etc. I guess I could see paying 45k for a CX-5 PHEV if it existed, but I've never driven or even sat inside of a loaded RAV4 to know how it compares.

But the Prime got my attention with the tax credit eligibility. However, my daily commute is 60mi so electric would get me one-way, and it's not like the electric is just free either. I am a teacher so would get good use in the summer for shorter trips to the golf course etc., but I carpool during the school year so only drive half the weeks anyways. So I question myself if it's worth paying a premium for PHEV that could take 10yrs to break even (and odds of keeping a car that long are slim for most). If Toyota decides to factor the credit into their MSRP so that they reap the benefits that consumers should be receiving, then it might not sell as many which could extend the time of the 200k sale limit for the tax credit for me to wait it out and see what else comes around etc.

I was very intrigued by Honda Ridgeline at one point (the features, not mpgs) but then Cybertruck came out and destroyed it in my eyes with their price when comparing capabilities. As someone else said, if priced too high to start it'll be very hard to sell once the credit dries up IMO


The majority of folks on this forum and other non-Toyota forums feel that $45k is their personal cap and that it will also be Toyota's. We all have to remember it's still just a RAV4 underneath. While it WILL make nearly the perfect daily driver, it still lacks the feel of other cars in the $50k range.
 

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I currently drive a 2018 Mazda6 GT Reserve (and a 2015 Mazda6 Touring before that)...I absolutely love Mazda -- the features, feel and look of the interior/exterior, how it drives etc. I guess I could see paying 45k for a CX-5 PHEV if it existed, but I've never driven or even sat inside of a loaded RAV4 to know how it compares.
Your Mazda would most likely have a higher end feel then Rav4. I have loaded Ravh limited and it feels cheap in comparison to my Durango limited which I had 5 years now, but that's obviously not why I got it, I wanted the MPGs and with the Prime I want performance feel too.
 

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Relatively clean, relatively reliable, relatively easy service availability, relatively fun, relatively useful. And even at the absolute top end, relatively cheap to buy compared to the other I was considering.

Perfect, heck no. Haven't ever seen a perfect car. Buying for 50 years.
 

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There was another post in this thread that had the Prius Prime coming in at ~$2400 more than the standard Prius of equivalent trim level. But that seems to only get you plug in capability.

A price of $42,900 would put the loaded RAV4 Prime at $2695 more than a loaded Hybrid Limited.

But in the case of the RAV4 Prime, that hypothetical 2700 bucks gets you quite a bit more than that price premium did for the Prius.

Off the top of my head:
Plug-in range of 39 miles
83 more HP / 2 second 0-60 reduction
Color Heads-up Display
Power Passenger Seat
9 inch infotainment Screen
Paddle Shifters
RCTB

If the loaded RAV4 Prime XSE comes in at ~43K with a battery capacity that qualifies it for the full $7500 tax credit I think they will all be sold before they even get off the delivery truck.
 

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If the loaded RAV4 Prime XSE comes in at ~43K with a battery capacity that qualifies it for the full $7500 tax credit I think they will all be sold before they even get off the delivery truck.
Exactly why this price isn't going to happen. Look at hybrid it already sells like hotcakes
 

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Exactly why this price isn't going to happen. Look at hybrid it already sells like hotcakes
As I continue to play the speculation game waiting for real info in the coming months I look at that upgrade list and ask "what is that worth"?

I would love it to be $2695. Toyota if you are reading this please listen to jwiedle24 and make it so!

With that said....

If we look at the Toyota line up and see what is being charged for a pretty big power bump (along with additional options) we can't really find an "apples to apples" example.

But a suitable approximation might be to look at the cost to go from a 203HP XLE or XSE Camry to a 301HP XLE or XSE V6 Camry (which also gets you a HUD, Panoramic Sunroof, JBL audio system, etc.).

The delta is $5125.
 

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As I continue to play the speculation game waiting for real info in the coming months I look at that upgrade list and ask "what is that worth"?

I would love it to be $2695. Toyota if you are reading this please listen to jwiedle24 and make it so!

With that said....

If we look at the Toyota line up and see what is being charged for a pretty big power bump (along with additional options) we can't really find an "apples to apples" example.

But a suitable approximation might be to look at the cost to go from a 203HP XLE or XSE Camry to a 301HP XLE or XSE V6 Camry (which also gets you a HUD, Panoramic Sunroof, JBL audio system, etc.).

The delta is $5125.
Those Prime XSE's pretty much match the Limited and offers a couple of things new to the line-up. Fully loaded Limited Hybrid $39,085 + your delta of $5,125 = $44,210. I'm comfortable with that number. Factor in the tax incentives and I'll feel like I got away with something. 🤞
 
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