Toyota RAV4 Forums banner

601 - 620 of 1729 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Even if Toyota prices it at $43k, the dealers won't. It'll be ADM city for a while.
Totally different car, but do we know if any of the dealerships marked up the Supra's when they came out? Not that the two cars have anything in common, but it would indicate Toyota's tolerance level for their dealerships trying to squeeze additional profits.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
456 Posts
I tried to do the same thing with the battery. The cost of a battery is about $350.00 per KwH. Tesla claims to have gotten that down $250.00 per KwH but I always take Tesla financial numbers with a grain - so split the difference and call it 300.00. Meaning the battery itself is going to be factory cost 5000. Not sure what the current 1.6KwH battery costs them but it can't be much. So what does that mean at MSRP? 7500? 10,000?, not counting the bigger electric motor and plug in controls, which are not cheap. Plus you currently have some other battery patent spats between EV battery makers which could spill over to Toyota.

The other thing is if Toyota prices it at slightly at their cost difference, the vehicle price when the EV credit sunsets will spike 7500.00 and Toyota will have no place to move either with MSRP or dealer incentives.

One additional note - global vehicle sales volume is dropping pretty fast. There going to want to maximize profit rather than move units - because its easier to keep your CEO job in a declining market claiming maintained margins than shrinking sales slower than your competitor.

And as mentioned, if Toyota doesn't the dealer's will. Toyota can't dictate dealer pricing, thats anti trust. So if all or even most dealers do it, nothing Toyota can do in the US at least.

Speculation on my part obviously. I hope I am wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
Totally different car, but do we know if any of the dealerships marked up the Supra's when they came out? Not that the two cars have anything in common, but it would indicate Toyota's tolerance level for their dealerships trying to squeeze additional profits.
There were plenty of Toyota dealers marking up the GR Supra, except the problem is the Supra really isn't that desirable and their prices have come back to Earth. People can buy those all day @ MSRP. The C8 Corvette's announcement really didn't help it either.

The Prime will have a much bigger audience. If people can buy a $43k Prime at sticker, it'll be a long line, including me. I am 100% ready to buy a fully equipped XLE Hybrid for $30k+ but if Prime is realistically $35k + tax out of my pocket, I'll happily stretch for that $5k for a superior car. That's why I don't think it'll really be that low.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Those Prime XSE's pretty much match the Limited and offers a couple of things new to the line-up. Fully loaded Limited Hybrid $39,085 + your delta of $5,125 = $44,210. I'm comfortable with that number. Factor in the tax incentives and I'll feel like I got away with something. 🤞
I'm becoming more convinced about that price range as days go by...I would never buy Prime if the cost AFTER rebate is 1k+ higher than a hybrid. 39 EV and some extra features is not worth $8,500 to me personally; as I said it'd be 10 years before seeing that money back in energy savings. I still think it's good for all parties if it comes below loaded hybrid MSRP after rebate. Hybrids will still sell to those who have no charging easily accessible, those who have 0 to little fed tax liability, and those that cannot afford the extra $7,500 up front worked into their monthly payments. So hybrid sales shouldn't be hurt as much as it seems, plus they'll likely gain some features as standard on hybrids for the 2021 models making them more comparable to the Prime.

I like the Camry price comparison and I remember Outlander PHEV being mentioned at one point. The size of the RAV4 is smaller than the Outlander -- the Outlander is in between RAV4 and Highlander size. I feel like extra cargo space is a desirable feature for an EV, so that plus when I loaded Outlander PHEV with relevant features it came out to be about 45k w/delivery. With $5,800 tax credit you're around 39k before taxes etc. Mitsubishi also has 0% APR for 48 mo on 2020s and 0% APR for 72mo on 2019s. Toyota will surely not be handing out 0% financing...which can add to the dealer's profit margin. Just some other tidbits for what it's worth...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Supra prices in my area are all over the map, according to CarGurus.com. Some dealers are asking $10k above MSRP, while others are listing the Supra at $3k below.

How much ADM will depend on how Toyota prices the Prime. If the dealers' prices wipe out the tax credit savings, much of the allure goes away.

All of this makes me appreciate Tesla's buying process.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
I'm becoming more convinced about that price range as days go by...I would never buy Prime if the cost AFTER rebate is 1k+ higher than a hybrid. 39 EV and some extra features is not worth $8,500 to me personally; as I said it'd be 10 years before seeing that money back in energy savings. I still think it's good for all parties if it comes below loaded hybrid MSRP after rebate. Hybrids will still sell to those who have no charging easily accessible, those who have 0 to little fed tax liability, and those that cannot afford the extra $7,500 up front worked into their monthly payments. So hybrid sales shouldn't be hurt as much as it seems, plus they'll likely gain some features as standard on hybrids for the 2021 models making them more comparable to the Prime.

I like the Camry price comparison and I remember Outlander PHEV being mentioned at one point. The size of the RAV4 is smaller than the Outlander -- the Outlander is in between RAV4 and Highlander size. I feel like extra cargo space is a desirable feature for an EV, so that plus when I loaded Outlander PHEV with relevant features it came out to be about 45k w/delivery. With $5,800 tax credit you're around 39k before taxes etc. Mitsubishi also has 0% APR for 48 mo on 2020s and 0% APR for 72mo on 2019s. Toyota will surely not be handing out 0% financing...which can add to the dealer's profit margin. Just some other tidbits for what it's worth...
The price of the Prime will be adjusted once the federal tax credits go away, or have big cash incentives to move the units that are no longer qualified for tax credit but still have an inflated sticker. Toyota knows nobody would actually pay that much if the tax credits didn't exist.

When tax credits are gone, I expect maybe a $1,500-2,000 premium over an equivalent normal Hybrid. I also fully expect to see more lower trim PHEVs with likely lower power outputs.

Yes, for those people that don't have $7,500 in tax liability, they're better off leasing one or buying a used one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
456 Posts
When tax credits are gone, I expect maybe a $1,500-2,000 premium over an equivalent normal Hybrid. I also fully expect to see more lower trim PHEVs with likely lower power outputs.
I can't fathom them selling at only 2K more than the current hybrid, when the battery cost alone at factory level is at minimum double that amount, and likely more. Toyota isn't in the business of subsidizing vehicles. Isn't the Prius prime lilke 3500 more than a regular one, and its battery is only half the size of the proposed Rav4 PHEV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
I can't fathom them selling at only 2K more than the current hybrid, when the battery cost alone at factory level is at minimum double that amount, and likely more. Toyota isn't in the business of subsidizing vehicles. Isn't the Prius prime lilke 3500 more than a regular one, and its battery is only half the size of the proposed Rav4 PHEV.
It's hard to say. Toyota made a pretty strong effort on making the regular Hybrid only a little more than the gasser. Toyota very well might take a smaller profit on each Prime unit sold to go for the volume, taking buyers from competitors. Toyota has way more cash than basically anyone else.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
456 Posts
It's hard to say. Toyota made a pretty strong effort on making the regular Hybrid only a little more than the gasser. Toyota very well might take a smaller profit on each Prime unit sold to go for the volume, taking buyers from competitors. Toyota has way more cash than basically anyone else.
Again - I hope I am wrong. However the hybrid at street level is at minimum 5500.00 more than the gasser. The dealers aren't taking the hit - Toyota is giving dealer incentives on the gasser there not offering on the Hybrid, so just because the MSRP is only 1500 apart doesn't mean thats what Toyota is actually selling them to dealers at.. Again - just stating numbers - Toyota could consider it a marketing spend and do it differently.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
Again - I hope I am wrong. However the hybrid at street level is at minimum 5500.00 more than the gasser. The dealers aren't taking the hit - Toyota is giving dealer incentives on the gasser there not offering on the Hybrid, so just because the MSRP is only 1500 apart doesn't mean thats what Toyota is actually selling them to dealers at.. Again - just stating numbers - Toyota could consider it a marketing spend and do it differently.
Actually, I can speak on this because my family has been shopping 1 gasser and 1 Hybrid. We have already bought the hybrid.

It was a 2019 LE Hybrid BSM+Tonneau with MSRP $30,048. Actual transaction price, $25,500 with TFS cash included. This is before TTL. No trade in. No college rebate, no military rebate. No rebates at all except TFS.

We have not bought the gasser but the actual quotes, $29,388 MSRP, actual buy price was $23,388. This is a LE AWD with BSM+Tonneau. They offered $6k off but we walked. We may not end up buying it as our minds have changed and will look towards future models. My location is Boston, MA.

Sum it up, real transaction price, Hybrid was $2,100 more than a gasser. They are both very closely equipped. I can only base this on my situation. Your location will likely be different. Do note this dealer has a doc fee of $350.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
This was my thinking...take from the competition to get them inside of a Toyota as EVs become more available. I know it's a business and can happen, but I won't pay an artificial premium via shady tactics to make corporations richer and myself poorer. If the plan were to be to bring the price down after tax credits expire, then that means those that bought at release were charged more than they should have in the first place and the feds gifted manufacturers/dealers a profit margin handout rather than helping the consumer.

Thanks to everyone for all of the insight up to this point.
It's hard to say. Toyota made a pretty strong effort on making the regular Hybrid only a little more than the gasser. Toyota very well might take a smaller profit on each Prime unit sold to go for the volume, taking buyers from competitors. Toyota has way more cash than basically anyone else.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
This was my thinking...take from the competition to get them inside of a Toyota as EVs become more available. I know it's a business and can happen, but I won't pay an artificial premium via shady tactics to make corporations richer and myself poorer. If the plan were to be to bring the price down after tax credits expire, then that means those that bought at release were charged more than they should have in the first place and the feds gifted manufacturers/dealers a profit margin handout rather than helping the consumer.

Thanks to everyone for all of the insight up to this point.
Charging more money for something new isn't a shady practice by any means, this isn't a need item, not some life saving medication This is just a luxury item for most shoppers. Some people like fancy new things and they are willing to pay for it. Market will ultimately dictate the price. We all value objects and services differently.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Charging more money for something new isn't a shady practice by any means, this isn't a need item, not some life saving medication This is just a luxury item for most shoppers. Some people like fancy new things and they are willing to pay for it. Market will ultimately dictate the price. We all value objects and services differently.
Correct...charging more for something new is not wrong in itself....but I meant intentionally gouging customers for more $ because they know they'll get a tax credit is shady...just because it happens, we know it happens, and accept that it happens still doesn't make it right.

But like you said market will dictate. That's why I'm kind of glad no price release yet as advancements in tech, prices of competition, other new EV/PHEV releases can impact success and price of the Prime. Also, if people feel it's overpriced then maybe the tax credit lasts longer into the 2022 model which could provide more leverage on negotiating a 2021 model or the option to see what else is available from other manufacturers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
I tried to do the same thing with the battery. The cost of a battery is about $350.00 per KwH. Tesla claims to have gotten that down $250.00 per KwH but I always take Tesla financial numbers with a grain - so split the difference and call it 300.00. Meaning the battery itself is going to be factory cost 5000. Not sure what the current 1.6KwH battery costs them but it can't be much. So what does that mean at MSRP? 7500? 10,000?, not counting the bigger electric motor and plug in controls, which are not cheap.
This is very interesting. So Toyota is charging ~$2400 more for the Prius Prime vs. the equivalent trim non-plug Prius. Using your estimate the battery in the Prius Prime would cost Toyota $2640. So it appears they have decided to take a loss on the Prius Prime.

Charging more money for something new isn't a shady practice by any means, this isn't a need item, not some life saving medication This is just a luxury item for most shoppers. Some people like fancy new things and they are willing to pay for it. Market will ultimately dictate the price. We all value objects and services differently.
ADM is a personnel pet peeve of mine. If the car doesn't have a plaque somewhere that says "number X of X" then I am a fool for paying it. I hope any dealer who marks up a plug in compact SUV ends up with a dust collector on their lot.

One last food for thought item on the price. The term "luxury" prompted to me to take a look at another division of Toyota for a pricing comparison. Lexus's compact SUV, the NX300h, fully loaded is $51,445.

I just can't see the "common folk" arm and the "luxury" arm only having a $1500 difference for their "highest optioned" compact SUV's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
This is very interesting. So Toyota is charging ~$2400 more for the Prius Prime vs. the equivalent trim non-plug Prius. Using your estimate the battery in the Prius Prime would cost Toyota $2640. So it appears they have decided to take a loss on the Prius Prime.



ADM is a personnel pet peeve of mine. If the car doesn't have a plaque somewhere that says "number X of X" then I am a fool for paying it. I hope any dealer who marks up a plug in compact SUV ends up with a dust collector on their lot.

One last food for thought item on the price. The term "luxury" prompted to me to take a look at another division of Toyota for a pricing comparison. Lexus's compact SUV, the NX300h, fully loaded is $51,445.

I just can't see the "common folk" arm and the "luxury" arm only having a $1500 difference for their "highest optioned" compact SUV's.


Let me tell you what is ridiculous, Kia dealers having been charging ADM for the Telluride. You can buy a Honda Pilot all day for $5k off which has a superior AWD system. Newness sells though. The Telluride has been getting a lot of press and Kia has been marketing the hell out of it.

You can look at the the hybrid emblem and think the NX300h is the same thing with a fancy logo, except I believe the NX still uses the old hybrid tech and it isn't a plug in. The fuel economy is average and the performance is lackluster compared to the Prime. If the Lexus brand and experience is what you want, then the NX300h will fill that void. You also do get that awesome Predator face! It isn't a $1,500 difference anyways, you can't get a federal tax credit on the NX.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,002 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
This is very interesting. So Toyota is charging ~$2400 more for the Prius Prime vs. the equivalent trim non-plug Prius. Using your estimate the battery in the Prius Prime would cost Toyota $2640. So it appears they have decided to take a loss on the Prius Prime.



ADM is a personnel pet peeve of mine. If the car doesn't have a plaque somewhere that says "number X of X" then I am a fool for paying it. I hope any dealer who marks up a plug in compact SUV ends up with a dust collector on their lot.

One last food for thought item on the price. The term "luxury" prompted to me to take a look at another division of Toyota for a pricing comparison. Lexus's compact SUV, the NX300h, fully loaded is $51,445.

I just can't see the "common folk" arm and the "luxury" arm only having a $1500 difference for their "highest optioned" compact SUV's.
Wonder if car buying services like Costco might help, though I have never tried to buy a car in such short supply using the service. Not sure if they would exclude a vehicle like that initially, or if they could charge ADM on top of the negotiated price. The hope would be that you could at least pay MSRP.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Let me tell you what is ridiculous, Kia dealers having been charging ADM for the Telluride. You can buy a Honda Pilot all day for $5k off which has a superior AWD system. Newness sells though. The Telluride has been getting a lot of press and Kia has been marketing the hell out of it.
They did the same thing with the Stinger. Similar positive press, etc. Now they are taking 12K off the MSRP just to move them. I hope that eats up ALL of the ADM they accrued. My apologies for appearing "triggered" but ADM drives me crazy.

You can look at the the hybrid emblem and think the NX300h is the same thing with a fancy logo, except I believe the NX still uses the old hybrid tech and it isn't a plug in. The fuel economy is average and the performance is lackluster compared to the Prime. If the Lexus brand and experience is what you want, then the NX300h will fill that void. You also do get that awesome Predator face! It isn't a $1,500 difference anyways, you can't get a federal tax credit on the NX.
Just comparing it to the current RAV4 Hybrid Limited. The NX has older tech, lower fuel economy, over a second slower to 60, etc. but the NX still costs 11k more. I am sure the fit and finish, soft touch materials, so on and so forth are much better for the Lexus. There is also a "badge tax" going on there. I think this will still remain true when the Prime is released. The better performance/plug-in ability for the Prime closes the gap. Just not to 1500 bucks.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but I think most people are asking is the RAV4 Prime REALLY worth 50K or are they padding the price because "tax credit". The former is fair, disappointing, but fair. The latter is disingenuous at best.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
If Toyota pricing history matters the cost of a Prius in the mid 2000's was significantly higher due to the tax credit that buyers were eligible for.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
114 Posts
They did the same thing with the Stinger. Similar positive press, etc. Now they are taking 12K off the MSRP just to move them. I hope that eats up ALL of the ADM they accrued. My apologies for appearing "triggered" but ADM drives me crazy.



Just comparing it to the current RAV4 Hybrid Limited. The NX has older tech, lower fuel economy, over a second slower to 60, etc. but the NX still costs 11k more. I am sure the fit and finish, soft touch materials, so on and so forth are much better for the Lexus. There is also a "badge tax" going on there. I think this will still remain true when the Prime is released. The better performance/plug-in ability for the Prime closes the gap. Just not to 1500 bucks.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but I think most people are asking is the RAV4 Prime REALLY worth 50K or are they padding the price because "tax credit". The former is fair, disappointing, but fair. The latter is disingenuous at best.

ADM annoys me too and good thing I am not impressed by the latest and greatest. If you want to get some good laughs, you should see what some young people paid for their Civic Type Rs. Many of them traded their upside down 1-2 year old Civic Si on a Type R when it had a $10k markup. I remember one kid owed over $60k for his CTR. Oof. Stupid.

Haha, I totally forgot the Stinger even was marked up. Awesome car, I love it, and I wanted one...but I am a boring person now. RAV4 or bust!

The Prime isn't worth $50k but $42,500 for fully loaded CUV that has new tech to back it up, that's actually pretty in line with today's products. For those with additional state rebates, the deal is even sweeter.
 
601 - 620 of 1729 Posts
Top