[Willardrider]

I called my (fantastic) salesman at our (very good) local dealer - a very large one near Harrisburg, PA. He said these RAV4 Primes won’t be sold outside major metro areas and they wouldn’t receive any.

I’m heartbroken as I was set on this model. Since they don’t get Primes my guess is they can’t service them either so buying an hour and a half away is a non-starter.

The good news for you is that if you really want one, Harrisburg isn't very far from several major metro areas. Philly, Baltimore, DC, etc. Now, if you lived in Plentywood, MT, you'd be in trouble.

 

[mikefocke]

They will be on allocation for months as a hot new model. And that means your best bet is a very big dealer in a major metro area as they get the best allocations.

As for ADM, there is also distributor markup or added features in the SET and SWT zones. Go outside those zones.

 

[toyodaornot]

For me it is an exceptionally hard decision because I love my Subarus but I am tired of almost always seeing these great new upgrades every couple of years and the only way to get them, obviously, is to buy a new one or lease constantly.

Which is why long term car ownership coming to an end... At some point it would only make sense to lease cars for a few years or if Tesla robotaxis become reality then we will all be renting

 

[cometguy]

Which is why long term car ownership coming to an end... At some point it would only make sense to lease cars for a few years or if Tesla robotaxis become reality then we will all be renting

Yes, this is likely to be true for most car models (not all), as the technology is improving so very quickly now, in safety and computer systems (including infotainment screens) as well as in the move toward plugin electric vehicles. PHEVs will likely have an all-electric range routinely of 50+ miles within 5 years, and many affordable BEVs will likely have an all-electric range of 400-500 miles five years from now. There has never been such a rapid change in the auto industry as we are in now (save, perhaps, for a century ago).

 

[cometguy]

If they can service a RAV4 Hybrid, they can service the Prime. They're probably incredibly similar under the hood. Any differences from the hybrid are likely shared with the Prius Prime, and if they can sell that and service it, they can service the RAV4 Prime.

This is a good question. I understand again that most parts of the USA do not have Toyota dealerships that sell the Prius Prime. So it doesn't surprise me that Toyota doesn't want to make the effort that they should make to get the Primes sold in markets outside of major metro areas or away from the two coasts. Perhaps they don't want to make that many, or there's a battery supply issue to making a lot of them. But if most areas outside of major metro areas don't sell the Prius Prime, will those same dealerships have service departments that can service them? (If not, shame on Toyota for not forcing them to be able to service them.)

 

[cometguy]

Ask folks who were buying electrics left and right because of tax credits and rebates. No electric car is worth the cost without it

Most people I know who've bought BEVs did not buy them because of the tax credits or rebates, but rather because they really wanted to get away from gasoline, and the freedom of not having to go to gas stations; most BEV owners don't drive long-distance in their BEVs, and do 85-99% of their charging at home because they stay within a full charge (250 miles or so roundtrip) of home. And nobody that I know who bought a BEV has regretted it -- in fact, they tend to be really enthusiastic about how fun and enjoyable it is to own one, and they know that their repair costs moving forward are going to be way less than the repair costs for owners of ICEVs. A recent series of articles was published online showing comparison between buying a new Model 3 (at $35k, with no federal tax credit) and a new Toyota Corolla or new Honda Civic, etc. (at about $22k), which showed how after 5 years, the Model 3 owner has spent less on overall car expenses than those owners who bought a Corolla or Civic; this isn't just about cost of gasoline vs. electric, but also issues regarding the mechanical systems and maintenance and repair. And no way that you'd have more fun driving a Corolla or Civic than a Model 3.

 

[phwang7]

A recent series of articles was published online showing comparison between buying a new Model 3 (at $35k, with no federal tax credit) and a new Toyota Corolla or new Honda Civic, etc. (at about $22k), which showed how after 5 years, the Model 3 owner has spent less on overall car expenses than those owners who bought a Corolla or Civic; this isn't just about cost of gasoline vs. electric, but also issues regarding the mechanical systems and maintenance and repair. And no way that you'd have more fun driving a Corolla or Civic than a Model 3.

Here's a Google Sheets someone made comparing many cars to Model 3.

Electric Car vs Gas Car Price Comparison

Camry SE If you would like to use this sheet, simply copy/duplicate it and paste into a Google Sheet. Model,Tesla Model 3 SR+,Toyota Camry SE,Sources Purchase Price,$38,990,$29,111,$29,111,20000,*Variables You Can Change Have Grey Background,Avg miles/year,<a href="http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/o...

docs.google.com

 

[phwang7]

Most people I know who've bought BEVs did not buy them because of the tax credits or rebates, but rather because they really wanted to get away from gasoline, and the freedom of not having to go to gas stations; most BEV owners don't drive long-distance in their BEVs, and do 85-99% of their charging at home because they stay within a full charge (250 miles or so roundtrip) of home. And nobody that I know who bought a BEV has regretted it -- in fact, they tend to be really enthusiastic about how fun and enjoyable it is to own one, and they know that their repair costs moving forward are going to be way less than the repair costs for owners of ICEVs.

Owned a Bolt for a tad over 3 months, so far, probably spend a couple of bucks on electricity (free charging available around the city). Could have charged at home for about $10/mo in electricity vs $80-100 in gasoline in my RAV4 Hybrid before.

Love the zippiness and the super quiet operation.

The 60KWh battery pack shows $16K MSRP with current price about $12K 3 years since first Bolt in 2016. When the 8 yr battery warranty runs out (2027), it should be down to $5-8K.

Also, expectation of EV price parity with ICE is in 2025. Some now saying 2023. I think VW expects parity in about 5 years.

VW Expects Price Parity Between Gas & Electric Cars In 2nd Wave Of MEB

Volkswagen Group's comparison of the total cost of ownership (TCO) of internal combustion engine cars and battery electric cars reveals interesting data.

insideevs.com

 

[cometguy]

To be honest Toyota has always lacked the feel of cars in the same price range and even lower and the reason I've always avoided them yet they sell well, hold their value and been reliable.

This is why we are planning to buy a RAV4 Prime. We have owned one Toyota -- a 2003 Highlander AWD V6 that is still running well. It's a pretty spartan vehicle -- not at all enjoyable for out-of-town trips. But until the last couple of years, I don't think we spent more than about $1000 on repairs outside of routine maintenance. Really, really dependable. Toyota gets a lot of mileage of out that, and people are willing to overlook some of the crap that comes with Toyotas (including their horrible infotainment system, still -- though our 2003 Highlander has none). We have always bought cars to last a long time (in addition to our 2003 Highlander that my wife drives daily with 220k miles on it, we have a 2001 Volvo wagon with 240k miles on it that runs well still). But now I think that our decades-long tradition of holding cars for many years/miles will be coming to an end. It's hard to even see keeping a RAV4 Prime beyond Toyota's measly 3-year warranty period, because of the complexity in PHEV systems -- though hopefully the relative dependability of the Prius Prime will translate into good reliability in the RAV4 Prime also (it's again part of the reason that we're going in this direction). Too many exciting advances coming in the auto industry, also, will keep us from keeping cars for 10-15 years now. I'll be surprised if we don't own a BEV in five years, but we'll also retain at least one vehicle with an ICE (probably a PHEV) for those long-distance road trips.

That said, we'll go for the lower trim level of the RAV4 Prime, and we may not take the plunge on it if we can't buy it from a dealership for $40k or less prior to tax/rebate incentives. I just can't see paying more than about $32k for a Toyota; I'd rather move into something a little more fun and nice inside, in the lower luxury market, if I'm going to spend more than that for a Toyota. I suspect that Toyota understands this, and I don't see them charging over $40k for the lower trim, and in fact think they'll come in around $35k-$38k for that.

 

[toyodaornot]

Most people I know who've bought BEVs did not buy them because of the tax credits or rebates, but rather because they really wanted to get away from gasoline, and the freedom of not having to go to gas stations; most BEV owners don't drive long-distance in their BEVs, and do 85-99% of their charging at home because they stay within a full charge (250 miles or so roundtrip) of home. And nobody that I know who bought a BEV has regretted it -- in fact, they tend to be really enthusiastic about how fun and enjoyable it is to own one, and they know that their repair costs moving forward are going to be way less than the repair costs for owners of ICEVs. A recent series of articles was published online showing comparison between buying a new Model 3 (at $35k, with no federal tax credit) and a new Toyota Corolla or new Honda Civic, etc. (at about $22k), which showed how after 5 years, the Model 3 owner has spent less on overall car expenses than those owners who bought a Corolla or Civic; this isn't just about cost of gasoline vs. electric, but also issues regarding the mechanical systems and maintenance and repair. And no way that you'd have more fun driving a Corolla or Civic than a Model 3.

I certainly bought 2011 Leaf the moment it was out because I wanted to get away from gas and because there was a rebate among other perks like no sales tax and free charging station, if there were none of that I wouldn't have bought one. I didn't own it for too long though, range was pathetic in the winter (55 miles), so I got rid of it. It was nice to try, but gas cars were more practical and cheaper entry cost. Of course 8 years later and new electrics are improved when we have 200+ mile range but still that's not good enough for me to come back to them so I will wait for next gen when they improve charging speeds, until then PHEV is good compromise.

 

[boxy]

Disappointed that Toyota is not offering the plug-in on other trim levels such as LE and XLE.

This. I find that disappointing as well. I don't want the SE and XSE trim levels at all. I'm considering a RAV4 Hybrid LE or XLE.

 

[CheyennePress]

If it gets to 50k then it will compete with the Model Y and if you want performance
the Y is gonna win.
+ the Y is already equipped with the hardware for self driving.

The Y is not a SUV, though. I have no idea why Tesla is marketing it like that or why some consumers seem convinced that it is. It has poor ground clearance and minimal room for gear.

 

[MASTERNC]

The good news for you is that if you really want one, Harrisburg isn't very far from several major metro areas. Philly, Baltimore, DC, etc. Now, if you lived in Plentywood, MT, you'd be in trouble.

That will be my plan. I'm in Philly and will probably reach out to dealers in a couple of the other mid-Atlantic cities. The question is when to start the conversation, especially since I want to buy through the Costco program (if only to put them on watch if they try any games with a hot vehicle, since Costco evaluates customer experience very closely).

 

[Impreza]

That will be my plan. I'm in Philly and will probably reach out to dealers in a couple of the other mid-Atlantic cities. The question is when to start the conversation, especially since I want to buy through the Costco program (if only to put them on watch if they try any games with a hot vehicle, since Costco evaluates customer experience very closely).

The reality is no dealer is going to do a Costco price on a car that is super hot. When supply does finally catch up to demand, then perhaps some dealer will sign on for it. You have to ask yourself, why would they purposely take less money on a car when they can easily just sell it at a high price? Costco is just a lead generator for those who don't really want to negotiate themselves. No dealer is obligated to honor places like TrueCar or Costco.

 

[jwiedle24]

The reality is no dealer is going to do a Costco price on a car that is super hot. When supply does finally catch up to demand, then perhaps some dealer will sign on for it. You have to ask yourself, why would they purposely take less money on a car when they can easily just sell it at a high price? Costco is just a lead generator for those who don't really want to negotiate themselves. No dealer is obligated to honor places like TrueCar or Costco.

Just read this article today on Bloomberg that Toyota can't keep up with demand of Hybrid RAV4s due to battery supply. Which means supply on Prime will be even worse and probably why someone said it'd only be at limited dealerships 😵https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-05/toyota-s-biggest-problem-is-keeping-hybrid-car-models-in-stock

 

[Pilot1226]

The Model Y is a Crossover.

as for servicing, the Subaru Crosstrek PHEV won’t even be sold to someone out of range of service centers. The technicians literally aren’t trained to work on it unless they’re in the same area that they sell them (Cali Emission rules)

 

[Impreza]

Just read this article today on Bloomberg that Toyota can't keep up with demand of Hybrid RAV4s due to battery supply. Which means supply on Prime will be even worse and probably why someone said it'd only be at limited dealerships 😵https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-05/toyota-s-biggest-problem-is-keeping-hybrid-car-models-in-stock

You see, I find this more hard to believe because all the local dealers around me still has plenty of 2019 hybrids in stock. Now granted, maybe these hybrids aren't the most desirable as far as options go? I don't know. Our family was able to buy a 19 Hybrid LE for 15% off MSRP. To me, that doesn't seem like a car that is in super high demand as stated.

 

[MASTERNC]

The reality is no dealer is going to do a Costco price on a car that is super hot. When supply does finally catch up to demand, then perhaps some dealer will sign on for it. You have to ask yourself, why would they purposely take less money on a car when they can easily just sell it at a high price? Costco is just a lead generator for those who don't really want to negotiate themselves. No dealer is obligated to honor places like TrueCar or Costco.

Perhaps but I have a better feeling the Costco dealers are more reasonable in their dealings overall. Knowing the car will be hot, some dealers will add the ADM and all kinds of add-ons. I want one that will sell for MSRP and not give me what I don't want. Going through Costco will help me identify who they are.

 

[Lowcountry Rav]

You see, I find this more hard to believe because all the local dealers around me still has plenty of 2019 hybrids in stock. Now granted, maybe these hybrids aren't the most desirable as far as options go? I don't know. Our family was able to buy a 19 Hybrid LE for 15% off MSRP. To me, that doesn't seem like a car that is in super high demand as stated.

Where are you located. When I bought my ICE end of July, the dealer had exactly 1 hybrid - and 30+ ICE models. The other dealer in town - even more ICE, no Hybrids. I asked the sales person i bought mine from almost in passing and he said He had not seen one discounted at all yet. Might be worth someone travelling your way.

 

[Impreza]

Perhaps but I have a better feeling the Costco dealers are more reasonable in their dealings overall. Knowing the car will be hot, some dealers will add the ADM and all kinds of add-ons. I want one that will sell for MSRP and not give me what I don't want. Going through Costco will help me identify who they are.

Your best bet to buy @ MSRP is really just establishing a line of communication with the dealer. I am sure not every single one of them will be marked up. What I do expect is most dealers will receive them fully loaded with a bunch of fluff. I mean that is already happening now with current hybrids and gassers. You're not going to find many of them without any accessories. I heard the Gulf states get it the worse with seat protections and VIN etching BS. The northeast has not been nearly as bad from what I've witnessed when shopping.