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Yes, but if you drive PHEVs "properly", they are much better for the environment than non-plugin hybrids. Eleven months of the year, I'm commuting locally only and drive mostly in all-electric mode, plugging in for a full charge every night. When I take long road trips that one month of the year, I don't have to worry about charging and I'm still getting 28 mpg when driving 70 mph and lugging that electric drivetrain around. To me there's no comparison as to how much superior PHEVs with decent all-electric range are when compared to non-plugin hybrids. I can go up to 2000 miles when just commuting locally every day without filling up on gas in my PHEV. And, I can control when I'm in electric mode and when I'm not (unlike non-plugin hybrids), and, I get huge federal and state credits/rebates that you cannot get with a non-plugin vehicle. If you can plug in at night, and if your daily driving is under 30-50 miles, PHEVs can be far superior to any non-plugin vehicle.
The interesting thing to me is the new model RAV4 ICE is 5mpg better than the previous gen, and a lot of that improvement comes from things that were pioneered on the prius, like electric water pump, variable volume oil pump, and pseudo atkinson cycle when needed using valve timing. ICE vehicles are still going to be the most common for many years to come, so the indirect improvements to their mileage are a great side benefit from hybrid innovations.
 

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No, that means it is inferior.

Hybrid is an improvement over gas only because you are recapturing energy vs wasting it as heat via brakes. Plus the engine gets lots of breaks, saving losses from idling.

PHEV is less efficient than hybrid when in gas mode due to extra weight of battery and less efficient than BEV when in electric mode due to weight of engine.

The time of BEV is just about here / 2023! :)
BUT with a hybrid you know for sure that you can get between any two points on the map successfully, traveling being a fairly important aspect of having a vehicle. I'm not sure when that will true with a BEV, but no time soon.
 

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No, that means it is inferior.

Hybrid is an improvement over gas only because you are recapturing energy vs wasting it as heat via brakes. Plus the engine gets lots of breaks, saving losses from idling.

PHEV is less efficient than hybrid when in gas mode due to extra weight of battery and less efficient than BEV when in electric mode due to weight of engine.

The time of BEV is just about here / 2023! :)
Hybrids have other advantages over gas. The engine can be smaller (and more efficient) for the same system performance. It can run an Atkinson cycle (improving efficiency). The transmission is very efficient (no torque converter, CVT, and very small and simple). Electric motors and gas engines have different performance characteristics that complement each other well for an improved diving experience.

And I find it interesting you say PHEVs are less efficient than BEVs due to the weight of the engine ... but what about the weight of the battery? A car's engine only weighs 300 lbs or so. For comparison, a Model 3's battery is over 1000 lbs. Electric vehicles are known for being very heavy because of that battery.

The daily use of BEV and PHEV are roughly similar: get a charge sufficient for how much diving you do each day, and generally drive using that energy. Where they differ is what happens when you need to go further than that. A BEV carries around a large battery, while a PHEV has a gas engine. And of course, the are trade-offs between those two approaches, which is what all these discussions come down to.
 

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Hybrids have other advantages over gas. The engine can be smaller (and more efficient) for the same system performance. It can run an Atkinson cycle (improving efficiency). The transmission is very efficient (no torque converter, CVT, and very small and simple). Electric motors and gas engines have different performance characteristics that complement each other well for an improved diving experience.

And I find it interesting you say PHEVs are less efficient than BEVs due to the weight of the engine ... but what about the weight of the battery? A car's engine only weighs 300 lbs or so. For comparison, a Model 3's battery is over 1000 lbs. Electric vehicles are known for being very heavy because of that battery.

The daily use of BEV and PHEV are roughly similar: get a charge sufficient for how much diving you do each day, and generally drive using that energy. Where they differ is what happens when you need to go further than that. A BEV carries around a large battery, while a PHEV has a gas engine. And of course, the are trade-offs between those two approaches, which is what all these discussions come down to.
I am used to seeing BEV getting around 4 miles per KWh (25 KWh per 100 mile) while PHEV gets 3 miles or less per KWh.

After checking fueleconomy.gov, I find this interesting... by keeping its battery small, the Prius Prime EV mode is quite efficient and hybrid mode is more efficient than the Prius! If RAV4 Prime can do better than 3.5 miles per KWh and be more efficient than RAV4 hybrid, I am sold. :)


148522
 

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:sick:
The second story (from Digital Trends) is the more interesting story. It mentions both the solid-state-battery intensive research with Panasonic and the collaboration with Subaru to make an EV platform that both companies will use. I think that both are huge stories, and that Toyota will succeed on both fronts. Honda, by contrast, is denying that EV is the way to go; they're going to go down in flames if they don't correct their direction soon, as they'll be left way behind. Ironically, it was Honda that joined VW and BMW in supporting California's lead in increasing emissions regulations, while Toyota joined losers GM and FCA in opposing CARB -- almost making me want to boycott Toyota, but these other stories about solid-state batteries, joining with Subaru, and pushing up goals to have 5M EVs by 2025 make me try to ignore Toyota's siding with the Trump administration against California...
Kind of trashy bringing politics into this.
 

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Hybrids have other advantages over gas. The engine can be smaller (and more efficient) for the same system performance. It can run an Atkinson cycle (improving efficiency). The transmission is very efficient (no torque converter, CVT, and very small and simple). Electric motors and gas engines have different performance characteristics that complement each other well for an improved diving experience.

And I find it interesting you say PHEVs are less efficient than BEVs due to the weight of the engine ... but what about the weight of the battery? A car's engine only weighs 300 lbs or so. For comparison, a Model 3's battery is over 1000 lbs. Electric vehicles are known for being very heavy because of that battery.
The Toyota planetary transmission on the PHEV's has no torque converter? That's interesting - and cool. Are the PHEV's like the Prius Prime direct-injected also, or port injected, or is it the same dual-injector setup that the ICE ones have? Long term ownership brings carbon buildup concerns... If leasing this is probably a non-issue.

There's a pro and con for that extra weight with the BEV. That weight is actually very helpful if you drive in areas with snow or ice - and it's balanced weight. Like a pickup truck with the back end light and having a tendency to fishtail a bit.

I think in terms of long-term ownership, BEV is the way to go because it has fewer parts to maintain. We're looking at the battery pack, the rotor/stators for propulsion, and the computer. We're talking hundreds of parts rather than thousands in a typical ICE setup.

Again I'm skeptical of the non-Tesla charging infrastructure right now so I suppose that makes PHEV's the best of what you can pick if you're anti-Tesla. While Chademo adapters are becoming more popular, it's not as prevalent as Superchargers. I have at least 5 Supercharger stations within 30 miles of me with more "under construction" according to the website for a launch later this year.

You're right, the ideal circumstance would be to just have the electric part of the PHEV for your daily commute, and then have the ICE part for unusual circumstances and longer trips. But, there are drawbacks with this, namely in the long-term upkeep. Things don't last forever, and neither will the BEV's, but I don't think I've ever owned an ICE car that didn't require some type of emissions-related repair before 100k... muffler, resonator, exhaust piping issue, oxygen sensor, mass airflow sensor, etc....

For my circumstance I think if I bought a PHEV, all it would make me do is want a BEV and I would have buyer's regret for the 10-15 years I would plan to own the car.
 

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I have at least 5 Supercharger stations within 30 miles of me with more "under construction" according to the website for a launch later this year.
Ha ha. I have zero superchargers within a hundred miles, and a handful of "destination" low watt chargers at hotels downtown, and I live in a burb of Charleston SC, hardly the hicks. In fact, I can't even buy a BEV because i do not live in one of the 10 states most manufacturers sell in, and Tesla is not allowed to be sold here either.

This is why Toyota chooses PHEV, because the majority of places on earth will not have the infrastructure for a very long time.
 

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Hmmm... Just looked @ a Youtube video. Still NO illuminated switches in the Prime until now...
Exactly the same switch unit. Missed (Messed?) opportunity!

148534
 

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Kind of trashy bringing politics into this.
This whole thread is about the politics of EV vs. ICE and the obstacles the new technology faces during this time of transition. The post you cited simply pointed out the fact that our current federal administration relaxed environmental standards on auto emissions and California, along with several auto makers, wants to maintain the higher standards. Relaxing the standards reduces the incentive for innovation but keeps the oil profits flowing. Why is it trashy to state this fact?
 

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Interestingly enough the politics tonight are in motion: NJ State Assembly & Senate just passed S2252 which permits up to $5000 instant rebate towards purchase of an EV, based on $25 per mile range. 200 miles of EV range would warrant the full $5000 rebate. Additionally, it allocates up to $500 towards the purchase of home EVSE.

All of a sudden that Model Y AWD now becomes $47-48,000... and the LR Model 3 would be around $42-43,000...

Ooooh....
 

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Ha ha. I have zero superchargers within a hundred miles, and a handful of "destination" low watt chargers at hotels downtown, and I live in a burb of Charleston SC, hardly the hicks. In fact, I can't even buy a BEV because i do not live in one of the 10 states most manufacturers sell in, and Tesla is not allowed to be sold here either.

This is why Toyota chooses PHEV, because the majority of places on earth will not have the infrastructure for a very long time.
Tesla "low powered" destination chargers are at 16KW. For a 50KWh battery in a Model 3, it's full tank in about 3 hours! I would not call that "low powered". :)
 

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It’s faster than you think. While not as fast as a gas station assuming there is no wait, it’s definitely liveable.

here is a graphic of someone that did a test. I would probably run between 10-60% in terms of supercharging if time was an issue.

148549
 

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It’s faster than you think. While not as fast as a gas station assuming there is no wait, it’s definitely liveable.

here is a graphic of someone that did a test. I would probably run between 10-60% in terms of supercharging if time was an issue.

View attachment 148549
Yes, but as I mentioned, there is no supercharger within 100 miles of my house, and I live in a MSA in the lower 48 that is approaching 1 million people. There are a handful of destination chargers - which are 11KW not 16 KW as posted earlier, and they basically are a version of the 240V three phase charger you can install in your house. So its a replacement for plugging in at home - not a gas station.

This is why Toyota is building PHEV's instead of BEV's - their target market is the 99% of the world that is not serviced by supercharger technology, and likely won't be for some time.
 
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