[Camocreation]

After reading many different posts (ok maybe all of them) about 5th Generation RAVs having "out of spec" rear camber issues (stock, lifted, brand new off of the delivery truck) with no way to adjust it, and Toyota not having a "real" fix for the problem...I was looking for feedback on whether it would be a possibility to replace the upper control arm bolt (as highlighted) with an eccentric bolt of some sort for adjustment. Or maybe even just by loosening that same bolt, prying the upper portion of the knuckle out (to correct too much negative camber), then re-torquing the bolt??? I am not an alignment or suspension expert by any stretch of the imagination...just looking for a fix for my RAV4.5, as well as, possibly helping others.

 

[Marksquared]

I'm 100% in agreement with you on this issue. This is such a penny pinching move for Toyota to not make these parts adjustable. When I picked up my 2022 the rear camber was so bad and my wheels had 27 lead weights on each wheel.
I couldn't believe after paying top dollar for my car that they would cut every single corner to save pennies.
The dealer was able to make it slightly better but not perfect by any means. I am only keeping this car until my 2023 shows up so I didn't push the issue.

 

[TyzToyz]

Just so you know, the amount of wheel weights on a rim has absolutely nothing to do with camber or alignment.
Wheel weights are used to balance the wheel.

Tye

 

[Marksquared]

Just so you know, the amount of wheel weights on a rim has absolutely nothing to do with camber or alignment.
Wheel weights are used to balance the wheel.

Tye

Yes I fully understand that. I was simply stating that on top of my rear camber being way out on pickup my wheels had an exorbant amount of weights.

 

[2019 lifted rav]

I bout a 2019 XLE a month ago, it had 35K miles on it and is a Toyota certified vehicle. It’s not a Hybrid. Anyways our family mechanic put a lift kit on it yesterday along with new tires and rims. When it was done and ready for alignment the rear centric bolts were frozen and could not be removed without ruining them and having to order new ones from dealer. These bolts he explained are how you align the rear wheels The right way ! He was able to align the rear by loosening some outside bolts instead , he explained this way is a pain and isn’t as accurate ! He said alignment isn’t bad but isn’t spot on like it should be ! He Warned me about the possibility of the dealer saying it’s not important or a big deal, but it is ! If you want it perfect like it can and should be and invested in expensive new tires then it may turn into an argument at the dealer, we’ll see. My mechanic also told me he sees this all the time on todays vehicles. Frozen bolts and parts on almost new low mileage vehicles because of lack of use of lubricants . So my guy says with new bolts and Labor and another alignment the cost is $250. So now I expect Toyota to pay ! And I also expect a disagreement at the dealer ! Maybe it’s my past experience at dealerships which were always G Motors. We’ll see how Toyota takes care of its customers

 

[durantjud]

2022 XLE Hybrid. JTMB6RFV.... Bought this car brand new, unseen during the "give us a deposit and you will be added to the list". 6 months later we got the car May 2022. We own 3 Prius so...

Fast forward to June of '23. I get in the car and whoa! Tire noise something wicked. Got out and my hand found right rear badly scalloped on inside at 18k. It was just in for its 15k service. Called dealer, raised some hell and got the car fit in same day for an alignment. I pay $120 for this service and was handed my paperwork. No alignment reading. So I had to ask for it, you know, with the before and after readings and here is when the poop hit the fan. Right rear was -2.3 same as it started and still out of the -1.8 to -0.3 spec. I asked why post alignment it was still out of spec. I get a puzzled look from the service rep. It gets escalated. I am told it has to do with how much fuel is in the tank. I escalated further. Imagine! Well, get to the #2 service guy and he tells me camber comes fixed from the factory and there is no way to adjust. Just like 4th gen where there is a TSB. No Gen5 TSB yet. They said they would open a ticket with Toyota as this is not new. They would call me and let me know when to bring the car down to look at it. This was back on 6/15/23.

Before I update the story... Anyone else having this issue?

 

[Tazio Nuvolari]

Before I update the story... Anyone else having this issue?

This is a WELL KNOWN issue especially in the hybrids and Primes which are heavier than the gas models. There are several threads in this forum discussing it --USE the forum search bar. There are several makes of aftermarket adjustable rear control arms that people install to correct this camber problem. The 8th gen Camry has the same issue.

 

[jordoncloutier]

I fixed my rear negative camber issues by installing heavier duty rear springs , they also provided 1.25-1.5" of lift which pushed the top of the tire outwards . the negative camber was gone and I was able adjust it back into proper spec during an alignment . IMO the stock springs are weak and engineered for ride quality only , not carrying and loads or passengers in the rear of the vehicle .
I remember before my spring upgrade that If I had two adults sitting in the rear seat, my rav4 was squatting like crazy. with the upgraded springs , they offer a better spring rate and a small lift , which allows me to have passengers and carry gear in the back without negative effects . Ride quality remained just as good as stock . I highly recommend Northwood performance Rav4 suspension kits

 

[FKHeath]

I fixed my rear negative camber issues by installing heavier duty rear springs , they also provided 1.25-1.5" of lift which pushed the top of the tire outwards . the negative camber was gone and I was able adjust it back into proper spec during an alignment .

How were you able to adjust the camber back into spec? The only adjustment available on the RAV4 is a toe adjustment:

I fixed my rear negative camber issues by installing heavier duty rear springs ,

What springs did you get?

 

[jordoncloutier]

How were you able to adjust the camber back into spec? The only adjustment available on the RAV4 is a toe adjustment:

View attachment 203848



What springs did you get?

You are correct , by adjusting the toe and by installing the slightly taller spring it brought my rear camber back into spec .

I got the Northwood performance rear spring kit for 2019+ rav4's

 

[durantjud]

My question, or quandry is this.

Why are we as customers of Toyota accepting a poorly designed and unsafe car as, from what I read, the Rav Gen 4, 4.5, 5 and now Camry Gen 9 have demonstrated? I did search and there are MANY threads on this topic. I picked this thread arbitrarily. Mostly because the Toyota Factory drawing spoke to me as I could see the exact part that was replaced by the dealer on my 2022 RAV Hybrid with 30k.

My assumption is we have three groups of forum members. Those in warranty, those outside warranty but covered by a TSB. And those with neither TSB or Warranty and have take matters into their own hands vs. having to prematurely replace tires due to rear negative camber problem. My assumption, the cost benefit is pay for aftermarket solutions to correct the negative camber and double the miles on on your tires is the reason owners gave up on a Toyota solution.

But for those of us searching the internet and finding this forum who are still covered under warranty, how do we gather our collective voice and force Toyota to correct the problem vs. aftermarket solutions?

My status. Car with 31k. 2 years old. 5k left on factory warranty. Rear inside tire badly cupped due to poor alignment (-2.8) which was identified by owner at 18k miles 6/15/22. Dealer opened case. Nothing happened. I opened case 2/1/24 and with some amount of wrangling got the Regional Toyota Tech to drive up from Boston to see the car in NH and authorize a new link. Now RR is -1.5 vs range of -1.8 to -0.3. They deem it repaired. This is an empty car. Some weight and per other posts, give it 30 days of use and it will settle back down to a value outside of -1.8. - -0.3 spec.

I opened a case with NHTSA, case 11571098. Not suggesting this is the best path but I felt better after completing it.

I bought my first Toyota in 2010, a Gen3 Prius. So pleased I purchased and still drive 3 Gen3 Prius. 2022 I bought a fourth brand new, fully priced nicely equipped 2022 RAV4 Hybrid based on my happy experience with the Brand and the Dealer. That experience has been turned upside down.

I believe we have an opportunity to use our collective voice to get Toyota North America attention.

Thoughts?

.

 

[RavForTwo]

A different viewpoint for your consideration.

The Rav is a tall, tippy vehicle with a relatively soft suspension. During emergency maneuvers or hard cornering, the rear suspension needs that amount of static negative camber to keep the rear tire flat on the ground to maximize grip. Without that negative camber, the rear tire can ride up onto the outside shoulder, lifting the tread off the ground and causing an unpredictable loss of traction.

The front tires don’t need this same amount of static negative camber because negative camber will increase for the outside wheel as the steering is turned.

Many newer vehicles are designed in the same way. Sneak a look at Honda’s as an example. My daughter’s former 2018 Civic had a recall for this exact same issue of excessive negative camber and the factory spec for that was roughly the same as the Rav.

Obviously, exceeding the specs is reason for a fix, but I believe the negative camber is there for a good reason. Any extra tire wear may just be the cost of owning a tall, tippy vehicle that provides a smooth ride through a soft suspension, and that still has to perform adequately in an emergency maneuver.

 

[Tazio Nuvolari]

During emergency maneuvers or hard cornering, the rear suspension needs that amount of static negative camber to keep the rear tire flat on the ground to maximize grip. Without that negative camber, the rear tire can ride up onto the outside shoulder, lifting the tread off the ground and causing an unpredictable loss of traction.

Good explanation. Here are some graphic depictions of negative camber in cornering. My avatar image shows the positive camber on the Bugatti front tires.

 

[durantjud]

I understand. As an old British Car guy I truly understand given my time with a Triumph Spitfire. Yes, I am an AARP member.

But I take exception to my '22 Rav4 Hybrid. 18,000 miles and alarming tire/road noise caused me to investigate. My wife drives the car 99% of the time and frankly I had not been in it. I felt the tires and found significant "cupping" on the inside RR. Took it to dealer and I got "not adjustable" and "OEM tires are low quality". At 18,000 I did not accept this explanation.

My viewpoint would be they have a design flaw causing premature and unsafe, uneven wear on inside corner of rear tires so frequently depicted in other posts on this forum. Likely more unsafe as it impacts 100% of the cars on the road vs. 2% that are driven beyond their designed handling limit. Good conversation. I like to replace tires when worn evenly. Not my experience.

 

[Bullwing]

Does anyone know how the camber and toe changes as the suspension travels - compression and extension? Both front and rear?

 

[Tazio Nuvolari]

Does anyone know how the camber and toe changes as the suspension travels - compression and extension? Both front and rear?

On the 5th gen RAV4 rear tires the negative camber generally increases on compression when driving over bumps in a straight line when the car squats down...but this changes dynamically in cornering as the suspension to the inside of the corner gets loaded and compresses and then the tire starts to move slightly towards positive camber. Rav4 rear negative camber also increases when the car is static and not moving but is heavily loaded with passengers and cargo. The hybrids (being heavier) tend to have more rear tire negative camber than the gas models. Rear negative camber=top of tires tilt inwards towards chassis.

 

[durantjud]

On the 5th gen RAV4 rear tires the negative camber generally increases on compression when driving over bumps in a straight line when the car squats down...but this changes dynamically in cornering as the suspension to the inside of the corner gets loaded and compresses and then the tire starts to move slightly towards positive camber. Rav4 rear negative camber also increases when the car is static and not moving but is heavily loaded with passengers and cargo. The hybrids (being heavier) tend to have more rear tire negative camber than the gas models. Rear negative camber=top of tires tilt inwards towards chassis.

An update on my '22 Rav4 Hybrid. I am advised today that the Toyota Reginal Tech declined my request for a) 4 new tires and b) an extension of my warranty by 15,000 miles. Warranty request based on the fact Toyota was unresponsive to the dealer at 18k and I am now 15,000 miles closer to the end of the 3/36k factory warranty.

After numerous calls where everyone tells me "this is the first time I have looked at this case.." I am told the Regional Tech offered 2 new tires as "goodwill". Toyota NA says they will not overrule a regional tech. I asked about the warranty extension and there was no comment to that. Makes sense since my request for 4 new tires and 15,000 mile extension was made well after the tech left the dealership.

So disappointing that Toyota is not able to stand behind their cars, specifically the Rav5!! At my age, I just want a car to be reliable and spend time addressing bigger challenges. The market is efficient and the years of goodwill they created will slowly be lost. My sister-in-law's Prime has the same problem. And I am the horses ass that recommended the car to her.

I will update if they extend the warranty.

 

[Bullwing]

On the 5th gen RAV4 rear tires the negative camber generally increases on compression when driving over bumps in a straight line when the car squats down...but this changes dynamically in cornering as the suspension to the inside of the corner gets loaded and compresses and then the tire starts to move slightly towards positive camber. Rav4 rear negative camber also increases when the car is static and not moving but is heavily loaded with passengers and cargo. The hybrids (being heavier) tend to have more rear tire negative camber than the gas models. Rear negative camber=top of tires tilt inwards towards chassis.

That's helpful, so for me, I actually want to run -1.5 to -2.0 Neg camber. What I'm more concerned about is toe. That's more of a tire wear killer than camber. Are there any issues with toe adjustability or awkward behavior under compression/extension and/or lateral loading?

 

[Tazio Nuvolari]

That's helpful, so for me, I actually want to run -1.5 to -2.0 Neg camber. What I'm more concerned about is toe. That's more of a tire wear killer than camber. Are there any issues with toe adjustability or awkward behavior under compression/extension and/or lateral loading?

I'm just a shade tree mechanic--not an engineer or high tech shop alignment expert. I did do my own camber and toe alignments on autocross racers and street cars many years ago using tape measures, string and a spirit or bubble level. Front toe is easily adjusted on a 5th gen RAV. As far as I know front toe should not change to any substantial extent in normal street use cornering from lateral loading or compression/extension on bumps providing the ball joints, steering arms, rubber bushings and all the other front suspension parts are in good shape. Now in racing and cornering with high g loads the rubber suspension bushings and the top mounting cap rubber on the MacPherson struts will compress and deform and toe may then change--that is why rubber is replaced with nylon, delrin or spherical bearings in racing cars and hot street machines. There is a special problem or issue called BUMP STEER which you can google where if your suspension is really screwed up the car can change direction without any steering wheel input when you go over a bump. The rear toe on a 5th gen RAV4 CAN be changed and crudely adjusted (contrary to what many think.) I have seen videos where the camber bolt on the rear is cranked and BOTH the rear camber and toe simultaneously change on the alignment screen--rear toe and rear camber can't be adjusted separately unless you have aftermarket adjustable rear control arms on a 5th gen RAV. Any adjustment to the rear toe will be a compromise with rear camber with the OEM parts. The rear suspension rubber bushings will deflect and deform under high g racing loads and in the 5th gen RAV suspension design I think would cause BOTH the rear camber and toe to change and I am not aware of any aftermarket performance bushings for our RAVs. I also think the OEM rear control arms are very flimsy and under high g loads (like in autocross racing) would actually flex and throw off any set alignment specs from corner to corner.

 

[RavForTwo]

Does anyone know how the camber and toe changes as the suspension travels - compression and extension? Both front and rear?

The rear is pretty simple - as a wheel moves upward it gains more negative camber and as it moves down, it gains positive camber.

The front wheels have competing forces and geometries at work, and the suspension designer manipulates caster, steeering axis inclination, and control arm geometries to achieve the desired camber changes when steering and as the front wheels compress and extend from their static location.

Most passenger cars will have the outside wheel gain negative camber with steering input, while the inside wheel gains positive camber. This helps keep the tread flat on the ground as a vehicle leans due to the corner. Front suspensions also have camber changes with compression and extension but those are usually lesser in degree than what occurs from steering.