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any update?I ordered the red godspeed today. They said it's got a +/-3° range.
any update?I ordered the red godspeed today. They said it's got a +/-3° range.
Which one of these will be better? View attachment 178801 View attachment 178802
It doesn't matter if they cross swap or not when the wear is from camber. The inside of the wheel is the inside of the wheel no matter which spot you swap it to. The only way to prevent this is to dismount the tire and remount and balance it in the opposite direction, which isn't possible for some tires.I've gone 63,000 miles on Goodyear Assurance MaxLifes, and there is some wear on the edges but they're still going. The reason the wear is showing on the inner and outer edges is because I make sure my tire rotations have some sort of cross rotation in them. I only mention this because the two different Toyota dealers I've used will simply swap front-to-back and back-to-front with no cross over even when I ask them to do it. The reason I know when they don't cross them is because I have my tires marked with numbers so I know where they should be after service, and, if they're not correct, I have them do it again. For what it's worth, the owner's manual does advise same-side front and back swaps with no cross for some reason.
So, just a head's up, if you're having your tires rotated at the dealer, there's a good chance it's be a same-side swap and you might not be maxi'ing the life of your tires...
This is a very detailed and long answer, thank you. However I dont totally agree with everything.Just read through the whole thread. After seeing all the pics shared regarding inner tire wear it's very easy to see that this is a toe problem, not a camber issue; the pic OP posted makes it definitive. If this were camber related at least 1/4 of the inside tire would show uneven wear compared to the outside tire. Since the excessive wear is focused only on the inside shoulder though, this is 100% an issue caused by lack of sufficient toe-in.
Contrary to popular belief, ~1.8* of camber isn't all that excessive; certainly not excessive enough to cause any appreciable amount of wear on the inside edge of a tire (not on it's own, at least). My last 3 vehicles ran -2* of camber and went 60k+ miles on the same set of tires with zero issues. The only time I had an issue with inside tire wear was when, you guessed it, there wasn't enough toe-in being accounted for. In that case, going from 1/32" toe-in to 3/32" toe-in completely solved the issue, even with the seemingly high amount camber specified.
For those that would feel better about having less negative camber in the rear though, go for it; all that's needed is an adjustment to the cam bolt located inboard on the lower control arm. Yes, the service bulletin will tell you that bolt is only meant to adjust toe; that isn't entirely true though. To avoid another 4th gen RAV4 adjustable toe arm fiasco, in Toyota's infinite wisdom, they decided to do away with toe-specific adjustment altogether on the 5th gen. Now all you're left with is direct control over camber instead.
As we all know though, when you adjust camber, toe values also change, which is why you always adjust camber before you begin setting toe. So now if you want to adjust toe in the rear using only factory pieces, you first play with the camber cam bolts until toe is where you want it...then cross your fingers and hope that you end up with camber figures that are fairly close from side to side after the fact. Any mechanic, technician, or service writer that tells you anything different from the above is either lazy, inept, or both...but given the single point of adjustment meant to correct two entirely different variables, I can kind of understand why they usually don't even bother attempting to adjust anything in the rear to begin with.
To sum up, here's the most effective/efficient way to solve the issue of inside tire wear on rear tires:
1. Adjust camber to whatever you feel most comfortable using the factory cam bolts. They have a massive range of adjustment, so they are more than capable of hitting any value 'within spec' or otherwise. Although adjustable Cusco upper arms are high quality components, there is absolutely no reason to spend money on those when factory bolts will easily get the job done here.
2. Replace the toe arms with the Hardrace versions mentioned above. These seem to be the only adjustable toe arms made for this platform that have a rubber bushing as opposed to spherical units. If anyone else happens to find another solution here, please share.
3. Now that you have complete independent control over toe, without the side effect of adversely affecting camber, add as much toe-in as necessary to offset your respective amount of inner tire wear; I'd start with the most conservative value mentioned as Toyota specification (0.10*) and go from there, knowing full well that additional toe-in beyond that spec may be required to get the job done...and I suspect it will. By my calculations, the above figure should translate to 3/64" (per wheel). Adjusting for overall load, bushing deflection, etc. you will likely need more than what Toyota typically calls for in order to achieve completely even tire wear.
4. Profit.
Correct, but when you're going from a position that has too much toe-out to one that has too much toe-in you get wear on the complete opposite side of the tire, regardless of which corner of the vehicle they end up on, just like he is reporting.The inside of the wheel is the inside of the wheel no matter which spot you swap it to.
Correct, but that's assuming you're going from one corner of the car to another corner of the car which has equally misaligned toe settings. Taking a tire with severe toe-out wear, dismounting/remounting, then putting it on a different corner with severe toe-in will continue to exacerbate the area of most wear.The only way to prevent this is to dismount the tire and remount and balance it in the opposite direction, which isn't possible for some tires.
You have a 'not enough toe-in' problem, not a 'camber' problem.I have a 2020 Hybrid XSE with 30k and the inside edge of the tires are worn almost bald
Yes you can. Adjustable factory camber cam bolts are circled in the attached pic.Youbmention original camber bolts. Where does one find this? Its not like you can adjust the camber with original filled equipment.
That's exactly what I suggested in my original comment; both adding adjustable toe arms AND increasing toe-in. However, there's no need for aftermarket camber arms since camber is already adjustable using factory equipment, where as direct toe adjustment, is not; hence the need for aftermarket adjustable toe arms.If you install non stock parts , you might as well install a adjustable ... toe arm. I actually did bring the toe more inwards than mentioned. I but my better looking tires at the back and the tire damag was there.
The service manual says this bolt is for adjusting toe, this was confirmed by the dealer and Tires Plus who where kind enough to demonstrate this to us. We did notice that this bolt has a small effect on camber; unfortunately, when adjusting rear toe enough to meet specs, the camber only got worse. See below from the manual:Yes you can. Adjustable factory camber cam bolts are circled in the attached pic.
That's exactly what I suggested in my original comment; both adding adjustable toe arms AND increasing toe-in. However, there's no need for aftermarket camber arms since camber is already adjustable using factory equipment, where as direct toe adjustment, is not; hence the need for aftermarket adjustable toe arms.
You keep mentioning this in multiple threads, but myself and others have pointed out that from a physical/algorithmic/mechanical perspective that just isn't entirely accurate.The service manual says this bolt is for adjusting toe, this was confirmed by the dealer and Tires Plus who where kind enough to demonstrate this to us.
No , that is Toe, not Camber. If you get in under tha car an look at how the wheel is attached. Its like a triangle. One mount on top and 2x on the bottom. The bolts you pointed out adjust one of the bottom connection points. That must mean toe. If it was camber, it would be adjusted on the top point.The service manual says this bolt is for adjusting toe, this was confirmed by the dealer and Tires Plus who where kind enough to demonstrate this to us. We did notice that this bolt has a small effect on camber; unfortunately, when adjusting rear toe enough to meet specs, the camber only got worse. See below from the manual:
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Rotate the rear suspension toe adjust cam sub-assembly to adjust the toe-in.
The manual also says that the only way to fix camber is to replace parts. Toyota replaced the springs under warranty, but that wasn't the problem (ride height was fine) then said they spent enough on us (literally, that's what the service manager said).
If that's the case, it would be more like a pyramid (tetrahedron). Changing the length of one of the bottom chords, which I assume that adjustment screw will do, should change both the toe and camber. And likely one more than the other.If you get in under the car an look at how the wheel is attached. Its like a triangle. One mount on top and 2x on the bottom.
We never had an issue adjusting rear toe, that was easy for the shops to adjust. As far as rear camber not being adjustable goes, this is what the manual says, along with what the two dealers and an independent alignment shop demonstrated to us. Maybe the Toyota service manual, dealers, and Tires Plus are all wrong. Anything is possible. The dealer actually spent thousands of dollars replacing parts in an attempt to adjust the rear camber without success. I suspect that if they could have adjusted it by turning the cam we pointed out to them they would have but again, anything is possible.You keep mentioning this in multiple threads, but myself and others have pointed out that from a physical/algorithmic/mechanical perspective that just isn't entirely accurate.
Humor me for a second; when Tires Plus 'demonstrated' this for you, what exactly did they do? Did they articulate both rear lower control arm cam bolts in a complete circle and note the camber readings with each respective 90* rotation? If they did, what was the deviation in camber for each given position?
Eventually I plan to do the following and will report my findings regardless of the results (assuredly returning with enough concrete data to further prove my point), but nothing more should be necessary to reach reasonable camber/toe figures for each and every corner of the vehicle:
- Adjust rear camber properly using factory cam bolts
- Install aftermarket rear toe arms and properly adjust toe
- Install various combination of Toyota crash bolts to increase front camber as much as reasonably possible
- Adjust front toe properly using factory tie rods
Ultimately I find it ironic that you don't trust Toyota when it comes to their stance on rear camber and/or lack of adjustability, you don't trust Toyota when it comes to their selected method of adjusting rear toe, but you wholeheartedly will take their word as gospel when they try to patronize you by stating that adjusting a cam bolt that is on the same exact axis as the rear hub is only meant for adjusting toe lol it's the equivalent of taking everything you learned (or didn't learn) in high school trigonometry and throwing it right out the window.
This happened on my ‘13 CX-5. At 28k miles, the inside of the tire was worn so badly that they needed to be replaced prior to the rest of the tread being gone. Those were the stock Yokohama tires. They were loud and sucked.Man, I just happened to notice that the inside of all four of my tires are worn almost bare. I have just over 40k miles on them. From the outside I couldn't see it, they look decent about right for the mileage. I just happened to be walking up behind my RAV4 and looked down at the tires and noticed. I've never had any indication that alignment is off and my last check at the dealership (35K) said my tires were good and I got them rotated.
What's the best way to handle this when I go in next week to get things checked at the dealer? I've never had tires so badly bald, especially so uniform on all four tires (on the inside, nonetheless). They are the stock Dunlop Grandtrek PT20's FWIW.