[Rav4Outdoorsman]

There's nothing inherently wrong with service shops using oil that comes in "bulk" quantities. This saves the consumer money because it is less costly to purchase that way. Any oil that meets the specification is fine with me. If it makes others feel better getting their oil in high-priced little plastic containers then that's fine with me too.

I’m well aware. If it’s got the API stamp, then it’s good enough for me and my intervals. No special fu fu oil for me unless it’s in performance vehicles.

 

[nels0300]

For what it’s worth, I worked at Jiffy Lube during high school and college and they used bulk Pennzoil in popular viscosities and API ratings at the time (5W30, 10W30). It wasn’t cheap, crap oil, it was the same pennzoil you bought in plastic bottles.

So…considering a good portion of Toyotas now call for 0W16, I don’t see why Toyota dealers wouldn’t have that in their bulk tanks.

 

[Rav4Outdoorsman]

For what it’s worth, I worked at Jiffy Lube during high school and college and they used bulk Pennzoil in popular viscosities and API ratings at the time (5W30, 10W30). It wasn’t cheap, crap oil, it was the same pennzoil you bought in plastic bottles.

So…considering a good portion of Toyotas now call for 0W16, I don’t see why Toyota wouldn’t have that in their bulk tanks.

The ones I’ve checked with don’t. And jiffy lube has had a contract with pennzoil for decades. I’ve seen at least one dealer with mag1 (which is Warren) which is good enough for me. In Germany they did have TGMO albeit a different label, along with fuchs. But they were non Toyota USA too.

 

[mww33458]

For what it’s worth, I worked at Jiffy Lube during high school and college and they used bulk Pennzoil in popular viscosities and API ratings at the time (5W30, 10W30). It wasn’t cheap, crap oil, it was the same pennzoil you bought in plastic bottles.

So…considering a good portion of Toyotas now call for 0W16, I don’t see why Toyota dealers wouldn’t have that in their bulk tanks.

That's because Jiffy Lube was a subsidiary of Pennzoil so they had to use that oil. Toyota dealers are all independent and can use whatever oil they want.

 

[nels0300]

Yeah, I know they had a deal with Pennzoil, I worked there for 8 years! Lol.

My point was that just because it’s bulk oil doesn’t mean it’s bad.

Also, the bulk tanks were used for the most popular viscosities and the weird ones were all bottled.

RAV4 is Toyota’s top selling vehicle, and it calls for 0W16. I don’t know why Toyota dealers wouldn’t have this in bulk. All of their new cars come with Toyota care, so most people with new Toyotas are going to the dealer for the first oil changes.

I suppose dealers don’t have to, I just don’t know why they wouldn’t.

I do my own oil changes anyways, so I’m not that worried myself.

 

[Ruthrj]

So the difference between API SN 0w16 and API SN 0w20 oil is .5% or around .2 MPG for a 40 MPG base car.

That’s about all we can surmise, yeah. That .5% improvement could have been calculated on a pure gas engine too. I’d need a deeper dive to see how that number was produced. It could be .5% improvement on a vehicle that runs the engine at all times. If so, the improvement could admittedly be even smaller for a hybrid that doesn’t run the engine all of the time!

Only worth it to Toyota in terms of fleet averages. Negligible or non existent for any who isn’t hypermiling their car.

That’s true. I don’t see how that’s a bad thing though as long as engine longevity isn’t sacrificed. I haven’t seen any evidence of mass oil related failures in any major vehicle manufacturers that adopted lower weight viscosities. Any issues rhay crop up like increased oil consumption seem to be due to faults like piston ring inadequacies.

Toyota has sold over one million 5th Gen RAV4s in the US. Let’s go with a lower MPG estimate for that million. Say they averaged 30 MPG. .5% improvement nets .15 greater MPG per car. That’s only 1.5 miles per 10 gallons (arguably what low rolling resistance tires might get you, but I digress). But that’s 1.5 million more miles travelled per 10 gallons of gas for a fleet of 1 million RAV4s. That’s tens of thousands of gallons of gasoline saved per tankful.

I just don’t understand the negativity around that (not saying you’re being negative, it’s other responses I’ve received over the years ). Cars are lasting longer than ever and I think it’s due to great engineering. If the owners manual says to run 0w-16 and to switch back to it if only 0w-20 is available, I’m guessing it’s because the oil pump is programmed for 0w-16 as another user suggested. Or use of a heavier weight invalidates Toyotas published EPA fleet measurements XD. Either way, it ain’t that deep to me.

 

[nels0300]

That’s about all we can surmise, yeah. That .5% improvement could have been calculated on a pure gas engine too. I’d need a deeper dive to see how that number was produced. It could be .5% improvement on a vehicle that runs the engine at all times. If so, the improvement could admittedly be even smaller for a hybrid that doesn’t run the engine all of the time!



That’s true. I don’t see how that’s a bad thing though as long as engine longevity isn’t sacrificed. I haven’t seen any evidence of mass oil related failures in any major vehicle manufacturers that adopted lower weight viscosities. Any issues rhay crop up like increased oil consumption seem to be due to faults like piston ring inadequacies.

Toyota has sold over one million 5th Gen RAV4s in the US. Let’s go with a lower MPG estimate for that million. Say they averaged 30 MPG. .5% improvement nets .15 greater MPG per car. That’s only 1.5 miles per 10 gallons (arguably what low rolling resistance tires might get you, but I digress). But that’s 1.5 million more miles travelled per 10 gallons of gas for a fleet of 1 million RAV4s. That’s tens of thousands of gallons of gasoline saved per tankful.

I just don’t understand the negativity around that (not saying you’re being negative, it’s other responses I’ve received over the years ). Cars are lasting longer than ever and I think it’s due to great engineering. If the owners manual says to run 0w-16 and to switch back to it if only 0w-20 is available, I’m guessing it’s because the oil pump is programmed for 0w-16 as another user suggested. Or use of a heavier weight invalidates Toyotas published EPA fleet measurements XD. Either way, it ain’t that deep to me.

Yup. Like I mentioned earlier, my wife’s Forester has had water thin 0W20 since it was new, has 100K miles on it. Runs perfect.

0W20 and 5W20 have been around for a while…and the engine failures just never happened.

Also, most engine wear occurs at cold startup and this is exactly when the 0 weight oils perform better than thicker oils.

Finally, like you’ve pointed out, the oil pump Toyota is using isn’t your father’s oil pump.

 

[mww33458]

It's funny that the only source for the Rav4 having an oil pump designed to run specifically on 0w-16 is one quip from the CarCare nut, but he doesn't even specifically say that. He also says to change the oil every 5k miles instead of of 10k as well. Except he says that explicitly in multiple videos, even stating that 10k oil changes will lead to your engine burning oil, and has said it multiple times. So which is it?

 

[Tazio Nuvolari]

It's funny that the only source for the Rav4 having an oil pump designed to run specifically on 0w-16 is one quip from the CarCare nut, but he doesn't even specifically say that. He also says to change the oil every 5k miles instead of of 10k as well. Except he says that explicitly in multiple videos and has said it multiple times. So which is it?

The two things are not mutually exclusive. Why do think the Oil Pressure Control Valve exists and is connected to the ECM with a wired connection? How do you think the ECM is programmed to regulate the PSI and flow of the oil? Do you truly think a soft ware programmer would not take into account the U.S. recommendation for 0W-16 oil? It is sheer folly for you to assume YOU know more than the CarCareNut on YouTube, yet you often bad mouth and denigrate him.

 

[mww33458]

The two things are not mutually exclusive. Why do think the Oil Pressure Control Valve exists and is connected to the ECM with a wired connection? How do you think the ECM is programmed to regulate the PSI and flow of the oil? Do you truly think a soft ware programmer would not take into account the U.S. recommendation for 0W-16 oil? It is sheer folly for you to assume YOU know more than the CarCareNut on YouTube, yet you often bad mouth and denigrate him.

So where does that state in the above that it can only use 0w-16 oil? Also, if you are going by the Car Care Nut, are you also disregarding the owner's manual that calls for 10k oil changes? And where am I bad mouthing him? Funny for you to ASSume.

 

[nels0300]

So where does that state in the above that it can only use 0w-16 oil? Also, if you are going by the Car Care Nut, are you also disregarding the owner's manual that calls for 10k oil changes? And where am I bad mouthing him? Funny for you to ASSume.

The owners manual says 5K for severe service.

I think it’s hilarious that people who spend a few hours on Bobistheoilguy.com think they know better than an entire team of Toyota engineers and a Toyota master technician.

 

[mww33458]

The owners manual says 5K for severe service.

I think it’s hilarious that people who spend hours on Bobisthe oilguy.com think they know better than an entire team of Toyota engineers and a Toyota master technician.

He doesn't say 5k for severe he says 5k for regardless, he even derides the the 10k recommendation.

In his most recent video, link to 50:40 in the video.

 

[Tazio Nuvolari]

So where does that state in the above that it can only use 0w-16 oil?

The ECM MUST have software programmed when to raise and lower oil PSI -- that is what such a valve does. Such programming MUST take into account the viscosity of the oil and how it reacts to temperature changes in the engine and the info I posted specifically says the valve reacts to engine temperature and other sensor parameters.

 

[mww33458]

The ECM MUST have software programmed when to raise and lower oil PSI -- that is what such a valve does. Such programming MUST take into account the viscosity of the oil and how it reacts to temperature changes in the engine and the info I posted specifically says the valve reacts to engine temperature and other sensor parameters.

Great, so you are you assuming. Got it.

 

[Ruthrj]

Development of Engine Lubrication System with New Internal Gear Fully Variable Discharge Oil Pump on JSTOR

Michitaka Yamamoto, Takayuki Hosogi, Tetsuji Watanabe, Yuki Nishida, Development of Engine Lubrication System with New Internal Gear Fully Variable Discharge Oil Pump, SAE International Journal of Fuels and Lubricants, Vol. 10, No. 3 (November 2017), pp. 904-912

www.jstor.org

JSTOR allows 100 free articles a month with account creation.

They certainly put a lot of time and effort into designing the pump with 0w-16 in mind. That’s all I’ve got too say about that

 

[nels0300]

He doesn't say 5k for severe he says 5k for regardless, he even derides the the 10k recommendation.

In his most recent video, link to 50:40 in the video.

Almost everyone drives in conditions that fall under severe service.

Why do you keep arguing?

Just use 5W40 or whatever you think is better.

 

[mww33458]

Almost everyone drives in conditions that fall under severe service.

Why do you keep arguing?

Just use 5W40 or whatever you think is better.

Really, almost everyone? Toyota defines severe driving conditions as follows:

If the majority of your driving involves the following.

Driving on dirt roads or dusty roads:

Driving while towing, using a car-top
carrier, or heavy vehicle loading

Repeated trips of less than five miles in
temperatures below 32°F /

Extensive idling and/or low speed driving
for a long distance such as police, taxi
or door-to-door delivery use.

I didn't realize that everyone drives on unpaved roads while towing on the weekends while they work their uber jobs during the week.

 

[Tazio Nuvolari]

Great, so you are you assuming. Got it.

No--YOU are ignoring the entire issue of the Oil Pressure Control Valve. You never answered my earlier questions as to how YOU, in your "great" wisdom think the software designers programmed the oil pump to raise and lower the PSI and when without taking into account the 0W-16 oil and how it reacts to engine temperature variations.

 

[mww33458]

No--YOU are ignoring the entire issue of the Oil Pressure Control Valve. You never answered my earlier questions as to how YOU, in your "great" wisdom think the software designers programmed the oil pump to raise and lower the PSI and when without taking into account the 0W-16 oil and how it reacts to engine temperature variations.

There's a big difference between can use 0w-16 to being only able to use 0w-16. Once you learn that distinction, well, let's just leave it at that.

 

[Ruthrj]

No--YOU are ignoring the entire issue of the Oil Pressure Control Valve. You never answered my earlier questions as to how YOU, in your "great" wisdom think the software designers programmed the oil pump to raise and lower the PSI and when without taking into account the 0W-16 oil and how it reacts to engine temperature variations.

it’s all good. Scholarly research posted and shared above. It’s like a team of engineers designed the Dynamic Force engine to be one of the most efficient engines in the market.