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This describes my problem as I described in my question to Toyota Customer Help. I haven't had a problem with a car that needed dealership help in years. Is my thinking as described below wrong?

Check Engine light turned on with codes P0420, P0430. I found what could be an applicable TSB, EG010-02, with a statement:
"This REPAIR is covered under the Toyota Federal Emissions Warranty..."

Before going through the expense of diagnosing any mechanical cause of the codes, I contacted the subject dealership to apply the fix that is identified under EG010-02. The service department refused indicating that they wanted to do their own behind closed doors "diagnosis" for $89.99.

To my mind, the only diagnosis that needs to be done is to determine whether my car VIN indicated that it has the faulty programming that is covered under warranty, or not.

What do I have to do to get Toyota to honor their commitments to me as customer and to the applicable federal agencies?
 

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How many miles do you have on your Rav? The problem you have should be covered under the emissions warranty.
 
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53,000 miles

I know the catalytic converter is covered, not sure about o2 sensors. It seems more likely that there is a problem with the threshold settings in the computer than both o2 sensors or two of anything going at the same time.

The point is that there is a known problem with the programming. Fix it and then let's talk about diagnosis if it doesn't make the problem go away. Recent browsing confirmed my fear about handing the problem over to parts replacers. Heck, they might replace the rear view mirror to solve the problem.
 

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The emissions warranty covers the catalytic converter, both O2 sensors, and the air flow sensors. Check the fine print, but the state and federal emissions warranties end at different mileages, but your RAV should still be covered by both.
 
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TSB - Technical Service Bulletins - they are meant to be used by dealerships and their mechanics to help mechanics diagnose problems/issues that may be prevalent in specific vehicles, that are sometimes difficult/costly to diagnose. Unfortunately, owners get a look at these TSB's and feel that they should automatically get the service done for free, while covered under warranty, no questions asked.

Most dealerships will always charge you a diagnostic fee of whatever amount they feel is standard - they have to make money too. So plugging in a code reader to read the vehicle's computer will cost you, unless you have connections at the dealership that can perform the TSB if it is determined that the TSB is warranted for your vehicle.

In order to act on a TSB, you will most likely have to pay the service cost. You should ensure that the check engine light will activate while at the dealership as well (or at least recently activated), or else you will be wasting your time and your dealerships' time...
 
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ScoobysRAV:

Thank you for your insight. In general, I cannot disagree with what you said except for the point that I have to make sure that the dealership makes a profit from their manufacturer's problems.

In this case, a product valued at $30,000 was purchased or leased. The manufacturer either introduced a design flaw intentionally or found that there was a flaw after some service experience. I personally don't feel obligated to help the dealership profit from the manufacturer's problem. That's the manufacturer's problem.

I did notice after posting that there was fine print: "Warranty application is limited to correction of a problem based upon a customer's specific complaint."

I have very specific complaints:
1. My check engine light is on and stays on.
2. The codes causing the CEL are P0420 & P0430.
3. My VIN # indicates my car has a design flaw that would trigger erroneous P0420 & P0430 faults.

The point is probably moot as the big ticket items are still under warranty.

I would like to point out one thing. Toyota is a leader in process improvement. One key tenet is variety reduction. In other words, if you have one part that can work across multiple products or for the different applications in the same product --- MAKE IT WORK.

Take a peek at the subject TSB. It identifies the old parts as:

89661-42660
89661-42661
89661-42662
89661-42820*

and the new part that the TSB calls for as

89661-42820*

Hmmmm. Seems like they had the answer all along. And why would a company that is a leader in the latest design and manufacturing technologies elect to use 4 part numbers when they could have gotten away with one, the good one?

I'm glad I'm not cynical or I might have some theories here.
 

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I don't know what those part numbers correspond to be it looks like the first three are successive generations of the same part, all of which were probably flawed, and then the last one may be from a newer model. Toyota is no better than any order manufacturer when it comes to trying to get away with not fixing faults if they can wait it out until the warranty of 90% of in service vehicles expires.
 
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Mitchscove;

Have you noticed any problems with your Ravs performance? Gas mileage,power,etc? I have posted this question to others with the check engine light problem.Does the car have poor performance symptoms or is the computer telling you there is a problem?
 
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Dr.Nahjib,

No performance problems at all. Car runs great. In fact, I left the car running in front of Autozone and the tech that did the check for me didn't realize that it was running - asked me to start it.

I'm going to take it to a Toyota dealership --- but purchased a CarChip yesterday to log the performance before and after it is serviced. Just got the thing set up on my computer today, so I'll see how it works this weekend. Guess I really should have done some research first, but it was love at first sight.
 

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Mitchscove sez: "I personally don't feel obligated to help the dealership profit from the manufacturer's problem. That's the manufacturer's problem."

Well I totally agree. I just bought my 02 Rav4 about a month ago and the engine light it comes on all the dang time. First it was the fuel injectors needing rebuilding or something (unoficially the dealer basically said to run some Techron through it). Then the brake lights go out and the engine light comes on. Having problems with the electric locks, and now the P0420 & P0430 issues. I'm ready to pitch the car even though I love the size, mileage, etc.

I was just over at both Autozone and Shucks and they gave me both the same codes and the prices for those O2 sensors are outta sight which I'm not happy about, and now I have to pay the Stealer $100 so they can fix a known problem. (grrrr....) This should have been a recall item in my book. Yeah I'm upset but I guess I'll have to bend over at the stealer tomorrow to have the computer fixed. :evil:

I did print out the TSB and will take it over with me. (Thanks to the forum)
 
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Well, my friend ,,, I ditched my 60,000 mile 2002 RAV4 last year and cancelled my subscription to Confuser Reports. Still have my other car, a 1997 Jeep Wrangler with 130,000 miles ,,, with no check-engine lights or mechanical problems. Not sure I like the Mazda6 I got to replace the RAV, but it's been check-engine light free also.
 

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The problem the dealership has is they can't take your word for it that the problem is what you describe, so they do the testing and find it's not a warranty problem, are they supposed to let you go buy the part you need at pep boys and fix it your self and they get nothing fo an our of their tech's time? What I would do is talk the service manager, say if the problem is warranty then the diagnonsis should be part of that warranty claim, if it's not warranty, then you will pay it.
 
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Tank,

In response to your old post on successor parts. Not from what I can remember. I seem to recall that some older models were using the good part at the same time newer models were being fitted with the time bombs. Do the research and see if what I recall is true.

This is not about recovering diagnosis time for a part that can be purchased thru Autozone. This is about a TSB that calls out specific VIN numbers having a problem with erroneous P0420 & P0430 codes and a RAV within the same range of VINs showing P0420 & P0430 faults. If that 2002 RAV showed up at your dealership with this problem, would you start by:
A. Replacing the faulty chip;
B. Replacing the O2 sensors;
C. Replacing the catalytic converter;
D. Replacing the rear view mirror.

I know you're gonna say that you would start by diagnosing the problem. If that were the case, why would people be talking about spending $300-$400 in labor before the problem was finally identified. The chip would show up as the culprit right away, wouldn't it?

By the way, I did call the service manager. Told him the situation. Told him about the TSB. Told him I'd like to have the chip identified in the TSB replaced. He said ,,, "Oh, no. That's not how it works. You pay $89 for us to diagnosis the problem and if we do the work the $89 is applied to the bill." I very politely hung up and never did get the problem fixed.

In the end, he got the car back from the leasing agency to fix at the dealership's expense and put on their used car lot.
 

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Mitchscove said:
Tank,

In response to your old post on successor parts. Not from what I can remember. I seem to recall that some older models were using the good part at the same time newer models were being fitted with the time bombs. Do the research and see if what I recall is true.

This is not about recovering diagnosis time for a part that can be purchased thru Autozone. This is about a TSB that calls out specific VIN numbers having a problem with erroneous P0420 & P0430 codes and a RAV within the same range of VINs showing P0420 & P0430 faults. If that 2002 RAV showed up at your dealership with this problem, would you start by:
A. Replacing the faulty chip;
B. Replacing the O2 sensors;
C. Replacing the catalytic converter;
D. Replacing the rear view mirror.

I know you're gonna say that you would start by diagnosing the problem. If that were the case, why would people be talking about spending $300-$400 in labor before the problem was finally identified. The chip would show up as the culprit right away, wouldn't it?

By the way, I did call the service manager. Told him the situation. Told him about the TSB. Told him I'd like to have the chip identified in the TSB replaced. He said ,,, "Oh, no. That's not how it works. You pay $89 for us to diagnosis the problem and if we do the work the $89 is applied to the bill." I very politely hung up and never did get the problem fixed.

In the end, he got the car back from the leasing agency to fix at the dealership's expense and put on their used car lot.
Did you find out for sure if you VIN was one of those affected or is that all you are trying to find out from the dealership? It takes all of 5 seconds to type your VIN# in and see all the TSBs that apply to it. But don't think Toyota would pay the dealership to simply replace the chip just because it's throwing codes, they would have to verify that the codes are in fact not valid, by testing the sensors involved. That's how it works here for Honda anyway. If it was a recall than the part would be replaced regardless of what the reason for the codes was.
 
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Mine was in the range of VINs with the problem. Throwing the same codes as called out in the TSB. I believe the problem was some threshold being too narrow ,,, heck ,,, I don't recall exactly what it said ,,, but mine was an affected unit.
 
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