[Luxo]

My prime is one of the first batch of primes from back in september 2020. I had my share of issues, but now I have lost all hope Toyota can fix my car.

My heat pump just died, and it is -10c (14f) and no heat at all even with the ICE running. It isnt funny anymore.

So this is it, my car is going back to the dealer and I will demand a new car or my money back. The car is comfortable, economic and all, but with all the issues I have had, enough is enough. Toyota quality is down the drain with this model (atleast for me).

 

[northwoodshyun]

So this is it, my car is going back to the dealer and I will demand a new car or my money back. The car is comfortable, economic and all, but with all the issues I have had, enough is enough. Toyota quality is down the drain with this model (atleast for me).

Your country must have great laws for protecting consumers. I might be lucky if I can get free charging while getting my car serviced. I heard newer Teslas are having issues with their heat pumps. The heat pump noise on my Prime does not make me feel good or confident. I have been running mostly in HV mode and heater works fine without any issues or noise. Are you sure you don’t get any heat if run your car in HV mode?

 

[iTim314]

My prime is one of the first batch of primes from back in september 2020. I had my share of issues, but now I have lost all hope Toyota can fix my car.

My heat pump just died, and it is -10c (14f) and no heat at all even with the ICE running. It isnt funny anymore.

So this is it, my car is going back to the dealer and I will demand a new car or my money back. The car is comfortable, economic and all, but with all the issues I have had, enough is enough. Toyota quality is down the drain with this model (atleast for me).

Hi Luxo, this is a very concerning topic. The heat pump / HVAC system is the item of which I have been most concerned on this car. Could you tell us more about your experience so we know what to expect?

When did you notice something was wrong? Or did the failure happen suddenly?

Do you or Toyota have any indication as to what happened?

When you say you've lost all hope Toyota can fix it, do you mean that they've tried and failed already, or that you'd rather not attempt fixing it and just give the car back?

You are fortunate to live in a country and region with consumer protection laws (unlike here in the U.S. where we treat corporations like deities that must never be inconvenienced). I hope you're able to get your money back.

 

[Chazz8]

I can fix your R4Prime in one step;
1. After vehicle in READY mode, press HV/EV button to toggle to Hybrid mode, wait for ICE coolant to warm up cabin.

I love having both ICE and MGs to use when they make the best sense. Using ICE waste heat for coolant -> cabin heat is a good reason to let ICE run, and you can switch to Heat Pump that now can (most efficiently) use ICE waste heat too.

I have played the MPG game (hard) trying everything to keep ICE from starting in my previous family Toyota Plug-ins. But now I love the purr or Growl of the ICE (tuned to R4Prime) and use it where (highway) and when (below 20F) it works most efficiently for me.

 

[ColoradoPrimeTime]

Yeah it seems odd to me that you aren’t able to get ANY heat, even with the ICE running.

The heat pump circuit uses refrigerant for heating and cooling, but the ICE heater core only uses the engine coolant system for heat transfer. Since they are fundamentally independent systems I don’t understand why both would not be working. Does the fan still turn on?

 

[jlawr1]

I can fix your R4Prime in one step;
1. After vehicle in READY mode, press HV/EV button to toggle to Hybrid mode, wait for ICE coolant to warm up cabin.

I love having both ICE and MGs to use when they make the best sense. Using ICE waste heat for coolant -> cabin heat is a good reason to let ICE run, and you can switch to Heat Pump that now can (most efficiently) use ICE waste heat too.

I have played the MPG game (hard) trying everything to keep ICE from starting in my previous family Toyota Plug-ins. But now I love the purr or Growl of the ICE (tuned to R4Prime) and use it where (highway) and when (below 20F) it works most efficiently for me.

I've come to defer to your knowledge of the manual, results of your experiments and recommendations for getting the most out of our R4P's, BUT, "I can fix your R4Prime in one step" just scared me.

Do you really think the Heat Pump system is NOT putting undue stress somewhere inside "The World's Most Complicated Car HVAC System"?

On one hand, I trust the reliability, durability and longevity of Toyota's and that's why I even considered buying a first year model car from them. I figured with twenty years of experience with hybrid cars, this is just the next advanced step. On the other hand, this seems to be an recognized issue in the R4P in Europe, with a fix, and should already be addressed in the US.

I am still concerned I may incur and expensive repair, down the line, out of warranty, even though the sky is not falling and this is still the best car I've ever owned.

 

[sinbad]

My heat pump just died, and it is -10c (14f) and no heat at all even with the ICE running. It isnt funny anymore.

I do not understand all the intricateness's of the heating system of this car, but I am surprised the ICE is not providing heat. Is the interior climate system blower running at all? Not that 14 degrees is in the range a heat pump can work with any efficiency, but do you hear heat pump noise under the hood? Does the heat pump come back to life in a warmer environment? Perhaps you have a blown fuse, failed electrical component, or poor coolant circulation.

For your next car, I see the upper trim Leafs have a combined heat pump and resistance heater, maybe a better choice for extreme cold, for ICE less cars. Not to long ago, I sold a big Ford with a V10 that gave great heat, but got 8-9 mpg driven gently and not towing. Choices, huh?

 

[8AA]

Yeah it seems odd to me that you aren’t able to get ANY heat, even with the ICE running.

The heat pump circuit uses refrigerant for heating and cooling, but the ICE heater core only uses the engine coolant system for heat transfer. Since they are fundamentally independent systems I don’t understand why both would not be working. Does the fan still turn on?

Actually it's not quite that simple. There are a pair of air/refrigerant heat exchangers for the heat pump system, but there is also an engine coolant/refrigerant heat exchanger that is used when the cabin is being heated. There is a separate pump to move fluid between the engine coolant/refrigerant heat exchanger and the cabin heater core. Valves close off this coolant loop from going through the ICE. However, if the ICE is started, once the coolant is warm enough, the valves let the ICE heated water circulate through the cabin heater core.

youtube - Worlds Most Complicated Car HVAC System? RAV4 Prime HVAC Explained

I wonder if the problem may not be the heat pump itself, but the control system that is operating the pumps and opening and closing valves.

 

[ColoradoPrimeTime]

A heat pump is just an AC working in reverse. My wager that the reason we’re starting to see heat pumps failing in cars (Teslas most notably) is because they were not designed with enough temperate range in mind. E.g, they are not able to handle heating in really cold (10F) scenarios for extended periods without wearing out the compressors.

For reference, heating the cabin to 70F when it’s 10F outside puts the same stress on the compressor as cooling the cabin to 70F when it’s 130F outside. See how that might add to compressor wear?

Agreed with Chuck that when it’s THAT cold out, just use the HV mode for Pete’s sake. The extra engine heat is not wasted in this case, but running in EV mode could cause problems as we’ve seen. Besides, you really should be in HV modewhen it’s that cold anyway so that you can run the windshield defroster.

 

[Luxo]

I dont know exxactly when, but when I was trying to pre-heat my car from the app before work this sunday, I did get a message that it was interrupted (not unusual) so I tried several times with no luck.

Then I tried the fob, same result same message from app. I walked to the car, tried the fob again and there was some relay clicking but no noise from the heat pump, then the message popped again. Did try to start the car but the heat pump never started.

I have an appointment tomorrow at my dealers workshop.

Yes I have had plenty of problem with the hvac, app, e-call, rattling noises, brake slipping, etc.

They replaced the hvac accumulator the week before Christmas because they found a leakage in that component, or at least they tought it was this component. I have been getting gas top ups 4 times in 2021 so something is wrong

 

[iTim314]

I dont know exxactly when, but when I was trying to pre-heat my car from the app before work this sunday, I did get a message that it was interrupted (not unusual) so I tried several times with no luck.

Then I tried the fob, same result same message from app. I walked to the car, tried the fob again and there was some relay clicking but no noise from the heat pump, then the message popped again. Did try to start the car but the heat pump never started.

I have an appointment tomorrow at my dealers workshop.

Yes I have had plenty of problem with the hvac, app, e-call, rattling noises, brake slipping, etc.

They replaced the hvac accumulator the week before Christmas because they found a leakage in that component, or at least they tought it was this component. I have been getting gas top ups 4 times in 2021 so something is wrong

For starters, if the outdoor temperature was below -10ºC, preheating (or any heat pump operation) is not available. The heat pump simple cannot function when it gets that cold, and the engine will not start unless you explicitly install an aftermarket remote starter that can. The only way you can get heat at those temperatures is with the engine running in the READY state.

The rattling is what it is. The RAV4 is not a premium vehicle, but the PHEV drivetrain gives it a premium price. It is understandable to feel that rattles shouldn't happen.

Is e-call the emergency dialing service? If not, what is that?

Can you elaborate on what the brake slipping is? That sounds concerning.

 

[Luxo]

For starters, if the outdoor temperature was below -10ºC, preheating (or any heat pump operation) is not available. The heat pump simple cannot function when it gets that cold, and the engine will not start unless you explicitly install an aftermarket remote starter that can. The only way you can get heat at those temperatures is with the engine running in the READY state.

The rattling is what it is. The RAV4 is not a premium vehicle, but the PHEV drivetrain gives it a premium price. It is understandable to feel that rattles shouldn't happen.

Is e-call the emergency dialing service? If not, what is that?

Can you elaborate on what the brake slipping is? That sounds concerning.

It was +5c on sunday so it was a mild day for January, the following days had -10c

The 2019 RAV4 hybrid I trade in (essentially the same car) did not have all this rattling noises.

Yes the emergency dialing service did not function. It struggled to connect. Think the DCM was restarted or did get an update.

Brake slipping is when you are braking towards intersections or roundabouts and the brakes switch from regenerating to physical brakes, then there is a small delay and it feels like the car is accelerating for a split second before it starts braking again. Not dangerous but it feels creepy and a bit scary because it catch you off guard.

This is fixed (still noticable but better) by a software update (TSB).

This occurs especially in cold weather. It is very noticable for us that change tires for the winter season (usually we change to a smaller rim size) and/or change rims to a different size than the original 20"

 

[iTim314]

Brake slipping is when you are braking towards intersections or roundabouts and the brakes switch from regenerating to physical brakes, then there is a small delay and it feels like the car is accelerating for a split second before it starts braking again. Not dangerous but it feels creepy and a bit scary because it catch you off guard.

This is fixed (still noticable but better) by a software update (TSB).

This occurs especially in cold weather. It is very noticable for us that change tires for the winter season (usually we change to a smaller rim size) and/or change rims to a different size than the original 20"

Fascinating. I hadn't heard about this.

 

[FredsToyota]

I am going to use my car as I see fit. If the heat pump breaks they can fix it under warranty. I am not worried about stressing the heating system.Thats like saying I won’t accelerate quickly because I am stressing the engine lol. The car should be built and tested to withstand normal use. I have confidence in Toyota from many years of experience. If it isn’t right they will fix it. I feel bad for the author in this situation and hopefully it is not a widespread problem.

 

[8AA]

Brake slipping is when you are braking towards intersections or roundabouts and the brakes switch from regenerating to physical brakes, then there is a small delay and it feels like the car is accelerating for a split second before it starts braking again. Not dangerous but it feels creepy and a bit scary because it catch you off guard.

This is fixed (still noticable but better) by a software update (TSB).

This occurs especially in cold weather. It is very noticable for us that change tires for the winter season (usually we change to a smaller rim size) and/or change rims to a different size than the original 20"

I remember my Prius doing that sometimes when you went over a bump while braking. It was a little surprising, but after a half-second slip, it would start braking again. Others on the PriusChat forum had reported the same thing. It almost seemed like the anti-lock brakes would feel the wheels stop turning for a moment because of the bump. By the time they released and grabbed again, the wheels were in contact with the road again and it would brake normally. I've always thought that the normal transition from regenerative to friction braking was very smooth on the Toyotas. Is it possible that you were also going over a bump. Not like a speed bump, but more like an expansion joint or other discontinuity in the roadway.

 

[Chazz8]

Do you really think the Heat Pump system is NOT putting undue stress somewhere inside "The World's Most Complicated Car HVAC System"?

I think my solution relieves (undue?) stress from The Worlds’s Most Coplicated Car HVAC System. By adding some/most heating/cooling from the ICE, you relive stress when the electric systems are pushed by EV highway travel or extreme temps.

 

[CyprusCorner]

Actually it's not quite that simple. There are a pair of air/refrigerant heat exchangers for the heat pump system, but there is also an engine coolant/refrigerant heat exchanger that is used when the cabin is being heated. There is a separate pump to move fluid between the engine coolant/refrigerant heat exchanger and the cabin heater core. Valves close off this coolant loop from going through the ICE. However, if the ICE is started, once the coolant is warm enough, the valves let the ICE heated water circulate through the cabin heater core.

youtube - Worlds Most Complicated Car HVAC System? RAV4 Prime HVAC Explained

I wonder if the problem may not be the heat pump itself, but the control system that is operating the pumps and opening and closing valves.

Interesting video, informative. Good job Toyota on this design!

Based on a description of how the HVAC system works and the OP's symptoms, my first guess is that OP has an issue with the heater core loop (perhaps the water pump or one of the valves in the recirculating lines), and NOT the heat pump itself. If OP is interested, there are ways to troubleshoot and diagnose the exact root of the problem, but if you're able to take it to a dealer, it's probably best to do that now instead.

 

[tbird2252]

I can fix your R4Prime in one step;
1. After vehicle in READY mode, press HV/EV button to toggle to Hybrid mode, wait for ICE coolant to warm up cabin.

I love having both ICE and MGs to use when they make the best sense. Using ICE waste heat for coolant -> cabin heat is a good reason to let ICE run, and you can switch to Heat Pump that now can (most efficiently) use ICE waste heat too.

I have played the MPG game (hard) trying everything to keep ICE from starting in my previous family Toyota Plug-ins. But now I love the purr or Growl of the ICE (tuned to R4Prime) and use it where (highway) and when (below 20F) it works most efficiently for me.

Chazz,
I have been doing exactly what you posted above. Works great!

 

[jcrystal]

It was +5c on sunday so it was a mild day for January, the following days had -10c

The 2019 RAV4 hybrid I trade in (essentially the same car) did not have all this rattling noises.

Yes the emergency dialing service did not function. It struggled to connect. Think the DCM was restarted or did get an update.

Brake slipping is when you are braking towards intersections or roundabouts and the brakes switch from regenerating to physical brakes, then there is a small delay and it feels like the car is accelerating for a split second before it starts braking again. Not dangerous but it feels creepy and a bit scary because it catch you off guard.

This is fixed (still noticable but better) by a software update (TSB).

This occurs especially in cold weather. It is very noticable for us that change tires for the winter season (usually we change to a smaller rim size) and/or change rims to a different size than the original 20"

Would love to see the TSB...may not be available in US

 

[Sties]

My prime is one of the first batch of primes from back in september 2020. I had my share of issues, but now I have lost all hope Toyota can fix my car.

My heat pump just died, and it is -10c (14f) and no heat at all even with the ICE running. It isnt funny anymore.

So this is it, my car is going back to the dealer and I will demand a new car or my money back. The car is comfortable, economic and all, but with all the issues I have had, enough is enough. Toyota quality is down the drain with this model (atleast for me).

Not sure I understand. You took it to the dealership? They acknowledged that the heat pump is dead and there is nothing they can do about it?