It seems like the AWD reviews for the RAV4 and it's competitors (CR-V, etc..) are not that great. I realize these vehicles are not supposed to go over terrain like a 4X4, but some of the Youtube "roller" tests, and actual snow/trail/rock tests, make the AWD systems look substandard. Has anyone had any real time experiences with the rear wheels engaging when the front wheels start to spin? I even saw somewhere, that a two wheel drive with winter snow tires did better.
ncwild
Since you posted in the HV forum, here's a good demo of the HV in a real world situation. The log climb part is pretty much dependent on tires, not just the AWD system, and it appears he had hit the climb with a bit more momentum with those that went the farthest, he also didn't give the Rav4 HV enough time to respond to the spinning rear wheel, you'll notice on the offset mogul he tried much longer to allow the system to brake the spinning wheels.
I took delivery the day a significant snow storm hit with 6-8” of heavy wet snow, and I had no issues going up inclines or up onramps where FWD sedans had stalled out or had gotten stuck. I was impressed with how the AWD handled the snow and that’s one of the reasons I opted for the Rav4H over the Camry Hybrid. How it handles off road, etc. I cannot say, but it gets a thumbs up from me for driving in the snow.
Roller tests are not particularly good representations of real world situations. Rarely are you in a situation where numerous wheels have zero traction whatsoever. You usually have a small amount of grip at each wheel, enough to get you going from a stop, unlike the roller test cars.
Don't worry too much about AWD tests. Keep in mind that tires are what is really important. Dedicated winter or snow tires are huge in snowy or icy conditions. People often focus on number of driven wheels rather than appropriate tires for conditions. Speaking from experience living south of Erie, PA, I'll take a front wheel drive car with Blizzaks over the same AWD car with all season (read: designed for high MPG) tires in winter all day long. Obviously, AWD and winter tires is the best setup. Unfortunately, most folks in snowy climes are too lazy and/or cheap to run proper tires in winter.
My wife's Prius, running Yokohama Ice Guard iG52c tires in winter, is a beast. Better from a stop light than many AWD vehicles around us. Ground clearance becomes the limitation in deep stuff. But on ice or snow under 8 or 10 inches, the thing is a tank.
Some must watch material on the subject. In particular, notice the low speed cornering and stopping performance of the 3 BMWs in video number one:
Don't worry too much about AWD tests. Keep in mind that tires are what is really important. Dedicated winter or snow tires are huge in snowy or icy conditions. People often focus on number of driven wheels rather than appropriate tires for conditions. Speaking from experience living south of Erie, PA, I'll take a front wheel drive car with Blizzaks over the same AWD car with all season (read: designed for high MPG) tires in winter all day long. Obviously, AWD and winter tires is the best setup. Unfortunately, most folks in snowy climes are too lazy and/or cheap to run proper tires in winter.
My wife's Prius, running Yokohama Ice Guard iG52c tires in winter, is a beast. Better from a stop light than many AWD vehicles around us. Ground clearance becomes the limitation in deep stuff. But on ice or snow under 8 or 10 inches, the thing is a tank.
Some must watch material on the subject. In particular, notice the low speed cornering and stopping performance of the 3 BMWs in video number one:
Based on watching the videos posted, tires play the biggest factor in providing vehicle traction under all kinds of roadway conditions. AWD systems multiply the available traction provided by the tires, by maximizing the number of tires that can provide traction at any given moment. However, if none of the tires are providing grip, 4x0=0, so in that case AWD does not help. But the ability of the AWD to multiply grip is a big advantage even if tires are providing only some grip, which represents the vast majority of driving conditions.
The video showed that even using standard all-season tires in the tested AWD vehicles, the AWD systems were able to perform adequately under the more moderate low-traction conditions tested. The more severe conditions would have required better traction tires (ie, off-road tires).
So, the idea is that all-season tires are the best compromise for all-around performance, recognizing that most people probably do not go through the hassle of owning different sets of tires for summer and winter driving, for their multiple vehicles owned. Having said that, there are performance differences even among tires rated as all-season. Some are more biased towards summer driving, and some towards winter driving.
I think the 2019 RAV4 HV AWD was designed with emphasis on winter performance, so I assume it's fitted with all season tires that are geared towards decent performance for winter driving. Mine came with Dunlop Grandtrek PT20 crossover/SUV touring all-season tires.
The video showed that even using standard all-season tires in the tested AWD vehicles, the AWD systems were able to perform adequately under the more moderate low-traction conditions tested. The more severe conditions would have required better traction tires (ie, off-road tires).
So, the idea is that all-season tires are the best compromise for all-around performance, recognizing that most people probably do not go through the hassle of owning different sets of tires for summer and winter driving, for their multiple vehicles owned. Having said that, there are performance differences even among tires rated as all-season. Some are more biased towards summer driving, and some towards winter driving.
I think the 2019 RAV4 HV AWD was designed with emphasis on winter performance, so I assume it's fitted with all season tires that are geared towards decent performance for winter driving. Mine came with Dunlop Grandtrek PT20 crossover/SUV touring all-season tires.
I respectfully disagree, based on research and personal experience living in the snow belt. Tires are chosen primarily for MPG, fuel economy targets. Snow traction is a distant second consideration. The best all season tires will provide a minimal level of snow/ice traction compared to quality winter tires. Not even close. A set of Blizzaks will blow the Grandtreks off the road in snow and ice, and even at low speeds.
Note the large difference in cornering and stopping performance from all season to winter tires even at very low speeds in the Tire Rack videos. Pretty substantial.
Part of it is the rubber compound. All season tires are relatively hard in temps below freezing. Winter tires use a much softer compound that is grippy in cold, as well as many more sipes for better traction. Even in dry weather, all seasons are inferior than winters just due to low temps. Can you get by running winter tires in summer? Sure. Are they even close to optimal? Nope.
All seasons are indeed better than dedicated summer performance tires in the winter. Still a distant cry from actual winter tires in said season.
People trying to drive a regular car, even an AWD one, up a mountain side have never heard the old adage, "Never take a knife to a gun fight."
Use the proper equipment for the conditions. I wear shorts in the summer and insulated pants in the winter.
I know, the commercials show passenger cars summiting Everest. If you believe them, we're getting into P T Barnum territory.
Use the proper equipment for the conditions. I wear shorts in the summer and insulated pants in the winter.
I know, the commercials show passenger cars summiting Everest. If you believe them, we're getting into P T Barnum territory.
I think this TFLoffroad review was posted elsewhere in this forum before, but seems relevant to the discussion. I'm not planning to take my RAV4 offroading like this but I'm very happy it has the capability to navigate offroad like this.
Some all-season tires are now marked with "three-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol branded on a tire's sidewall, to indicate the tire meets required performance criteria in snow testing to be considered severe snow service-rated. Tires branded with the 3PMSF symbol are expected to provide improved snow traction beyond a standard M+S branded all-season tire." The Dunlop Grandtrek PT20 tires do not have this symbol, but it's worth condidering tires with that symbol for future tire replacements.
In response to the OP’s original post: Yes, most of these AWD systems are inferior to a “dumb” 4WD system for snow/ice/mud although they offer an improvement for on road handling.
The 2018 EV had a really embarrassing showing on one of those roller tests, which I don’t think are irrelevant. It tests whether or not the system can get power to a wheel with traction like it is intended to do. As you can see, some systems work better than others.
The 2018 EV had a really embarrassing showing on one of those roller tests, which I don’t think are irrelevant. It tests whether or not the system can get power to a wheel with traction like it is intended to do. As you can see, some systems work better than others.
I’d qualify that a bit. Fast Lane Car did an interesting video in Colorado where a 2019 XSE failed one (of 4) roller tests, so they duplicated the only-one-rear-wheel-with-traction test on a very difficult off-road mountain trail and the RAV handled it. Not a one-to-one correlation between the rollers (no traction) and real life (a bit of traction).
My LE hybrid AWD has Toyo A38 Open Country that is rated A for traction, A for temperature and 300 for treadwear.
Well, I will be curious this next snow season. Just bought mounted, balanced and stored winter wheels with WS80 Blizzaks for my brand new XSE that came with PT20's (wished for the Toyos).
Been driving 4WD with all seasons for 40 years here in Minnesota. But the blizzards seem to be getting worse, and I am getting older. So this will be my first season with winter tires. I expect great things.
The AWD diagram on the MID shows a surprising amount of rear wheel bias from stops and low speed accelerations. It is not just limited to slipping situations.
Been driving 4WD with all seasons for 40 years here in Minnesota. But the blizzards seem to be getting worse, and I am getting older. So this will be my first season with winter tires. I expect great things.
The AWD diagram on the MID shows a surprising amount of rear wheel bias from stops and low speed accelerations. It is not just limited to slipping situations.
That's what it's designed to do, all 4 wheels from stops/low-speed accelerations...like the Prius AWD.
From Toyota's press release:
"RAV4 Hybrid: Enhanced All-Wheel Drive Capability
As with the AWD system in the previous RAV4 HV models, the new AWD version employs a separate rear-mounted electric motor to power the rear wheels when needed. The 2019 system comes standard on all RAV4 HV grades and increases total torque to the rear wheels by 30 percent compared to the previous system.
During on-road driving, distributing more driving force to the rear wheels helps suppress front wheel slip during off-the-line starts for optimal acceleration performance and stability. The system also helps reduce understeer during cornering for enhanced steering stability. Off-road, the increased rear-wheel torque helps provide powerful hill-climbing performance, even on rough terrain.
A driver-selectable Trail Mode helps make it possible to get unstuck by braking a spinning wheel and sending torque to the wheel with traction."
"RAV4 Hybrid: Enhanced All-Wheel Drive Capability
As with the AWD system in the previous RAV4 HV models, the new AWD version employs a separate rear-mounted electric motor to power the rear wheels when needed. The 2019 system comes standard on all RAV4 HV grades and increases total torque to the rear wheels by 30 percent compared to the previous system.
During on-road driving, distributing more driving force to the rear wheels helps suppress front wheel slip during off-the-line starts for optimal acceleration performance and stability. The system also helps reduce understeer during cornering for enhanced steering stability. Off-road, the increased rear-wheel torque helps provide powerful hill-climbing performance, even on rough terrain.
A driver-selectable Trail Mode helps make it possible to get unstuck by braking a spinning wheel and sending torque to the wheel with traction."
I grew up with snow tires every winter. I worked at a full service gas station using a pneumatic gun to push studs into studded snow tires. First front wheel drive car was a Saab 99 with tall, studded snow tires and I really couldn’t get that car stuck if I tried.
Here's the announcement for Toyota choosing the Grandtrek PT20 tires for the RAV4 (Hybrid, I guess):
"Sumitomo Rubber Industries, Ltd. is pleased to announce that we have begun supplying our high-performance DUNLOP GRANDTREK PT20 tires to Toyota Motor Corporation for use as factory standard tires on their new model RAV4 for the North American market, which went on sale in Dec, 2018.
In order to help the new RAV4 fulfill its core concept of being a "Robust Accurate Vehicle with 4 Wheel Drive," our DUNLOP GRANDTREK PT20 tires utilize a proprietary tread compound that not only provides outstanding steering stability and wet grip performance, but also excels in terms of fuel efficiency and wear resistance for balanced, all-around high performance both on/off-road and for the environment."
"Sumitomo Rubber Industries, Ltd. is pleased to announce that we have begun supplying our high-performance DUNLOP GRANDTREK PT20 tires to Toyota Motor Corporation for use as factory standard tires on their new model RAV4 for the North American market, which went on sale in Dec, 2018.
In order to help the new RAV4 fulfill its core concept of being a "Robust Accurate Vehicle with 4 Wheel Drive," our DUNLOP GRANDTREK PT20 tires utilize a proprietary tread compound that not only provides outstanding steering stability and wet grip performance, but also excels in terms of fuel efficiency and wear resistance for balanced, all-around high performance both on/off-road and for the environment."
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