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sKRiBEL

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
[1/6/2023 - SOLVED]: The fuel pump would start and seem to work, but it would start to malfunction within a few minutes or seconds of operation. It was a relatively new fuel pump (only in operation for 10 months since March 2022), so I assumed it wasn't the problem. However, due to build up of rust or dirt in the tank, I think that it must have become plugged up with tiny bits of debris. The vehicle starts fine after replacing it, and on top of that I got to do some long needed maintenance and the idle is much smoother now. Thank you to everyone who stopped by to give me a hand.

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My 98 RAV4 (256k km/159k Mi, 3FSE, AWD, Automatic) Starts up for anywhere between a few seconds to a few minutes before stalling. I can get it to start a couple of times before eventually it will only crank. Once I let it sit for a few hours, it will start again, but it goes back to stalling. I've been trying everything over the past week, without much luck.

The problem started gradually over a couple days. I got a P0171 code, Fuel System Too Lean, and figured it might have been bad gas. It drove fine for the rest of the trip after the code. The next day I noticed that it started to lose power at random, but once again I chalked it up to water in the fuel. I bought some gas line antifreeze, put it in and drove home.

I drove it to work later that day, and on the way the problem got worse and I started to lose power, especially up hill. The car would drop in RPM then suddenly recover over and over. I got it to work, but it stalled. Eventually after siphoning out the old gas and putting fresh stuff in, and some new spark plugs(the old ones were coated in dry carbon), I got it going long enough for a jerky ride home.

After a while I found out that if I lift up the fuel pump a bit just before the Rav stalls, or if I continue to lift it up and down, I can get it to keep running. The fuel pump in the car is fairly new, I replaced the original one in March, 2022. I suspect that it might have something to do with the Fuel Pressure Regulator, but I figured I'd reach out first.

I used a Veepeak ODB2 scanner to check the sensors, and all of them seem to be working fine, and throwing no codes. I have systematically unplugged the MAP Sensor, O2 Sensor Bank 1, Coolant Temperature Sensor, Air Temperature Sensor, Vapor Pressure Sensor (some caused backfires and pops when unplugged, but still stalled). I've also replaced the Fuel Filter under the fuse box (and bypassed the in-tank filter connected to the Fuel Pressure Regulator), changed the Fuel Pump Strainer, checked all fuses and relays related to the fuel system and ECU (none had to be replaced), changed the air filter, plugged the Vacuum hoses to the break booster and check for leaks, temporarily removed the catalytic converter, and cleaned the EGR Valve, EGR Vacuum Modulator, PWM, Gas Filter (connected to the MAP Sensor), PCV valve (it rattles), and the Throttle Body. All of this seemed to have no effect.

I thought I'd post here to see if anyone else has run into the same issue and can save me anymore headaches. Thanks for reading, and if you've got questions for me, feel free.

I will update if I find a solution. New fuel pump and Fuel Pressure Regulator coming on Friday with any luck.
 
skribel, can you please say more about what happened when the P0171 code was thrown? Were you driving; the CEL came on; the Rav engine was not running correctly (stalling and such); and you checked the code and found it was a P0171?

Here's what the service manual says can cause a code P0171:
Air Intake (hose loose)
Fuel line pressure
Injector blockage
Oxygen sensor malfunction
Manifold absolute pressure sensor
Engine coolant temp. sensor

The next time the Rav does not start, would you please check for spark and report back here what you find?

Does the Rav start fine at cold start but after the engine is warm, problems start? If so, I would suspect the ECT sensor and/or front oxygen sensor.

Is the fuel pump the one that has always been in the Rav?

What do you mean when you say you "lifted" the fuel pump? Do you have the fuel pump bracket's bolts unfastened, and you are literally lifting the whole assembly up and down?

Did you inspect the fuel pump suction side strainer sock? It should be uniform in color, orange-ish brown.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
Of
skribel, can you please say more about what happened when the P0171 code was thrown? Were you driving; the CEL came on; the Rav engine was not running correctly (stalling and such); and you checked the code and found it was a P0171?

Here's what the service manual says can cause a code P0171:
Air Intake (hose loose)
Fuel line pressure
Injector blockage
Oxygen sensor malfunction
Manifold absolute pressure sensor
Engine coolant temp. sensor

The next time the Rav does not start, would you please check for spark and report back here what you find?

Does the Rav start fine at cold start but after the engine is warm, problems start? If so, I would suspect the ECT sensor and/or front oxygen sensor.

Is the fuel pump the one that has always been in the Rav?

What do you mean when you say you "lifted" the fuel pump? Do you have the fuel pump bracket's bolts unfastened, and you are literally lifting the whole assembly up and down?

Did you inspect the fuel pump suction side strainer sock? It should be uniform in color, orange-ish brown.
When the CEL came on I was just out for a short drive on Christmas Day. Probably 10 minutes into my drive, the light came on. I checked the code within a few minutes of the CEL lighting up. It ran without issue for the rest of the drive, about 30 minutes. It wasn't until the next day that it really started to act up. It began to lose power more and more frequently. Eventually it just started stalling. After that it was hard to keep it running for more than a few minutes. I did manage to get it running for about 30 minutes at one point, after changing the spark plugs and putting fresh fuel in, but it went back to stalling again afterwards. Even while it was running for that 30 minutes, it still lost power often.

-It does have spark.
-It has an issue with starting after it's been started and stalled a few times, but I've tried with the ECT unplugged and the O2 Sensor on the exhaust manifold unplugged (separately and at the same time) and it made no difference.
-The fuel pump was replaced by me in March, 2022.
- By "lifted" I mean that I unscrewed the 8 screws that hold the fuel pump assembly to the tank and lifted the whole assembly up so that the pump was just barely able to slurp fuel, then lower it back into the fuel.
-The strainer on the fuel pump was replaced in March 2022, but when I pulled the pump on Dec 26 2022 the strainer was black with what I suspect was dirt, carbon or rust, so I changed the strainer for a clean one.

Thank you for the service manual information. That narrows my scope.
 
Since Xmas, has Code P0171 popped up again?

The fuel pump suction strainer sock was found fouled (dirty) in March and December of 2022. Recently, lifting and lowering the pump allowed the engine to run. To me these symptoms point to rust in the fuel tank being a leading candidate for the cause of the problem here. The rust may have fouled your new fuel pump and/or regulator as well.

There's another fuel filter in the tank that should probably be replaced. See discussion at my site (linked below).

I would want to inspect the fuel tank and the gas in the tank carefully for signs of rust.

Does having a full tank of gas help things?

I bought my 1998 Rav4 in 2018. Six months later I had one stalling problem (with the gas tank very low) that went away after waiting and adding some gas. The next day I took out the fuel pump assembly and found a filthy fuel pump strainer sock. I replaced the sock and pump with salvage yard ones (bench tested and inspected). I started monitoring the strainer sock, like every three months. It would still get dirty, and I mean dirtier than what I was seeing in salvage yard first generation Rav4s. The sock was not as dirty as what I found on the strainer that came with the Rav at purchase. I eventually inspected the fuel tank and found it pretty rusty. In 2020 I replaced the fuel tank. I have a write-up on this at my site, with lots of photos, if you eventually need it. See Elle's 1996-00 Toyota Rav4 Site , the fuel tank replacement section.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
Since Xmas, has Code P0171 popped up again?

The fuel pump suction strainer sock was found fouled (dirty) in March and December of 2022. Recently, lifting and lowering the pump allowed the engine to run. To me these symptoms point to rust in the fuel tank being a leading candidate for the cause of the problem here. The rust may have fouled your new fuel pump and/or regulator as well.

There's another fuel filter in the tank that should probably be replaced. See discussion at my site (linked below).

I would want to inspect the fuel tank and the gas in the tank carefully for signs of rust.

Does having a full tank of gas help things?

I bought my 1998 Rav4 in 2018. Six months later I had one stalling problem (with the gas tank very low) that went away after waiting and adding some gas. The next day I took out the fuel pump assembly and found a filthy fuel pump strainer sock. I replaced the sock and pump with salvage yard ones (bench tested and inspected). I started monitoring the strainer sock, like every three months. It would still get dirty, and I mean dirtier than what I was seeing in salvage yard first generation Rav4s. The sock was not as dirty as what I found on the strainer that came with the Rav at purchase. I eventually inspected the fuel tank and found it pretty rusty. In 2020 I replaced the fuel tank. I have a write-up on this at my site, with lots of photos, if you eventually need it. See Elle's 1996-00 Toyota Rav4 Site , the fuel tank replacement section.
My brother used to have a 90s Tacoma that stopped running because of a rusty tank, so that tracks. I wiped out all the rust I could see in the tank, but I might consider replacing the tank if changing all the fuel filters and the pump fixes the issue. I have ordered fuel filter No. 2 since I already have No.1 replaced. I also ordered a new pump and FPR.

As for the P0171 code, I have not seen it since it appeared the first time.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Could this be the classic case of a gas cap with a plugged or stuck vent allowing too much vacuum to build in the gas tank until the engine stalls? Lifting the fuel pump lets in air so it can run again? It seems unlikely but kind of acts like it.
Well, I've tried moving the pump aside to prevent a vacuum in the tank, but it didn't change much.
 
I have a vague recollection that the fuel pump has a thermal fuse that stops the motor when a certain temperature is reached? When the temperature goes down, the pump starts again? Could rust debris freeze up the pump impeller and cause the motor to overheat? I say: Don't give up on any pump until the pump fails a bench test.

What brand pumps are you installing?

The secondary sending unit also has a strainer sock on it, but I'd call it less important. All together there are four filters/strainers for the fuel system.

If all goes well after your next set of replacements, and if rust seems to be the problem, consider replacing the fuel pump suction strainer sock every three months. (For the frugal or experimental-minded: I have soaked old Rav4 strainer socks in vinegar for a couple days and re-used them. Vinegar eats rust.)
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
I have a vague recollection that the fuel pump has a thermal fuse that stops the motor when a certain temperature is reached? When the temperature goes down, the pump starts again? Could rust debris freeze up the pump impeller and cause the motor to overheat? I say: Don't give up on any pump until the pump fails a bench test.

What brand pumps are you installing?

The secondary sending unit also has a strainer sock on it, but I'd call it less important. All together there are four filters/strainers for the fuel system.

If all goes well after your next set of replacements, and if rust seems to be the problem, consider replacing the fuel pump suction strainer sock every three months. (For the frugal or experimental-minded: I have soaked old Rav4 strainer socks in vinegar for a couple days and re-used them. Vinegar eats rust.)
Well the pump is still pumping, so it hasn't failed yet. I'll be installing an Ultra-Power cheapo pump, just to see if it's the pump that is the problem. If memory serves, the current one is a Denso, which I spent about $130 on in March. I'll just keep using the Denso pump if the Ultra-Power makes no difference. If I do see that it's my current pump that is the problem, then I'll get a better pump soon.

Strainers are a dime a dozen, so I'll stock up the next time I order some parts.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
I've dunked my FPR in some CLR for a few hours to try and remove silicates. Then I did some cleaning, prodding and a little percussive maintenance to it. My in-tank fuel filter was so clogged that water couldn't pass through it, so I used some higher pressure water to spray through it and a bunch of rust, dirt and old gas came unplugged. I then ran some isopropyl alcohol through it to help dry out the water. I tested the pump with a couple pieces of wire and an AA battery, it's starting. I'll reassemble the pump assembly and see if it's going to work. Still going to install new parts when I get them, but if it runs for now, that would be great.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
good piece of detective work there - let us knew how you get on
Thank you. The cleaning didn't seem to do much. However, while I tested the pump last night I noticed something strange about the fuel pump. I had been under the impression that it was working fine because I heard it running, but it sounds to me like it stops intermittently. My experience with fuel pumps is that they usually just kick the bucket within the first few hours of noticing an issue, but this one seems to cut out unless it's shaken awake. I'll be taking a closer look at the wiring, relay, and the pump itself in the morning. I can't really disassemble it, but I'll poke around with my multimeter.
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
So with a new fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator, I am glad to say that it's running again. The fuel pump I got in March 2022 must have either been a lemon, or may have been clogged by miniscule rust particles building up in it. In any case, I ordered a borescope to take a look inside the fuel tank and see how bad my rust problem really is. As for the old pump, I haven't taken a look at it yet. I'll probably dig up the receipt and see if I can get a replacement on warranty.
 
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