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isaac-11

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I recently purchased a 2011 Rav4 at 162k miles. 4 cylinder. Service history shows that a transmission fluid exchange using WS fluid was performed at 160k with an "auto trans service kit", which I presume means the filter & gasket. Previous to that it got 4 quarts of WS fluid at 100k.

After purchasing it, there were two instances where the car jerked while reversing. It didn't occur right when shifting into reverse, but just after pressing the throttle. Odd, slightly concerning, but nothing unheard of for a car with 162k. At that point, I looked at the service history and did not see the 160k service somehow. Under the impression that the fluid hadn't been changed since 100k, I did a drain and fill of about 3.5 quarts with Valvoline Maxlife. The fluid was completely black and slightly sludgy. I drove for about a week and 200 miles without issues. I then did another drain and fill, again about 3.5 quarts Valvoline.

On the day that I changed the fluid the second time, I drove around for about 30 minutes, fluid level was right between the hot tick marks. Drove again later for an errand for about 30 minutes. No issues. Then, after exiting the highway after about 20 minutes of driving, the transmission refused to shift around 25 mph (which I presume is 2nd to 3rd?). The engine would rev to 4k. I let it rest for a little, drove home (less than a mile) but it still had the same issue. Wouldnt shift above 25 mph.

Now, driving around it just doesn't shift properly. It tugs when upshifting, feels like it revs in neutral slightly when getting below 10 mph during the transition from braking to accelerating. Fluid level is still spot on when warmed up and still red.

I took it to a local transmission shop. He couldn't see any codes on the ECU/ECM. He said he experienced similar drive-ability issues after about 15 minutes, he believes there were times driving where it would start in 2nd or 3rd after braking, times when it would hang in neutral going through gears, and some slippage.

He doesn't really have any conclusive information that would lead to any confidence in making a repair. He seems to be going down the route of either (1) ECU replacement/refurbishment or (2) rebuild the transmission. I'd expect the ECU would be about $1k, transmission somewhere around $4k. Regardless of the exact price, both seem awfully expensive for a car that I just bought for $7.5k.

Here's what I'm thinking in terms of actions:
1) Disconnect the battery overnight. If this helps, that would indicate an ECU issue to me. I doubt this will help, but its free and simple.
2) Drain & fill two more times, but this time with Toyota WS. If that doesn't help, maybe even throw some "magic transmission fix" fluid in there as a hail mary.

What do you all think of dropping the pan and changing the filter? It was recently changed, but who knows, maybe my drain & fill brought some junk that has clogged things up again.

In any case, any advice would be appreciated. Unless it does end up being an ECU issue (unlikely) or Toyota WS really makes it solid again, I'm just thinking to buy time before getting rid of the car while it still drives. I'm thinking to trade it in at a dealer, of course disclosing all that I know.

Cheers,
Isaac

P.S. A few further thoughts on the matter:
It doesn't make sense to me that the fluid would be black and slightly sludgy if it were just changed 2000 miles before. This to me would indicate a problem lurking in the background that was made worse by the fluid swap I did.
The previous owner spent $2k on repairs just 2 months before listing it for sale. I don't believe she was malicious, but this does seem like odd behavior. I wouldn't put $2k into my car if I was thinking of selling it.
 
#2 ·
I think the previous owner unloaded this car because of the transmission problem. You bought it and now you now have the headache. Judging by the color of the ATF you described it appears it is still dirty which means the condition is very bad. Did you not check it before buying? This is the number one rule and that is not to buy a car with dark ATF becuase it will bite you back. You have to do something because your transmission is not shifting properly. If this was my car I would drop the pan and change the filter and then do a return line flush. The problem with doing a flush is that you may not be able drive your car because it may cause gear slippage resulting in a new transmission. On the other hand it may work and you will be back in business. If you want to play it safe skip the flush and just change the filter and do another drain and fill.

As for your thoughts at the end the previous owner got fed up and frustrated and tried to cut the loss by selling the vehicle after pouring money into that money pit. She probably found the transmission would cost $5000 to repair and unloaded it. Your fluid can still look dirty even after 2 drain and fills. This is why ATF changes are so important because the transmission is very expensive to repair. Also important is not buying one in bad condition so you will have to fix it.
 
#3 ·
$5k to repair? omg. No, no, just no. Or was that a ballpark estimate? :) I'd swap the tranny with a rebuilt one, should be way less than that. I made the mistake of buying an Acura 3.2TL / Honda transmission from hell. 2k. There is no way a 2011 RAV4 tranny is that special.

I agree with your last suggestion, just drop the pan, change the fluid, but do NOT flush. But you indicated you've done this.

Previous owner / used cars: I bought my 2018 for 27k. You paid 20k less than me. it's the used car gamble, and maybe you did not do complete due diligence, but I've done so in the past and still been burned. It's life. It hurts sometimes.
 
#4 ·
cgilley said:
$5k to repair? omg. No, no, just no. Or was that a ballpark estimate? :) I'd swap the tranny with a rebuilt one, should be way less than that. I made the mistake of buying an Acura 3.2TL / Honda transmission from hell. 2k. There is no way a 2011 RAV4 tranny is that special.

I agree with your last suggestion, just drop the pan, change the fluid, but do NOT flush. But you indicated you've done this.

Previous owner / used cars: I bought my 2018 for 27k. You paid 20k less than me. it's the used car gamble, and maybe you did not do complete due diligence, but I've done so in the past and still been burned. It's life. It hurts sometimes.
Click to expand...
Yes it can cost $5000 just ask your Toyota dealer what they charge. If you shop around it can be less if you get a used one and hope the last owner did not skip ATF changes. Buying a used car is a gamble but doing your home work and researching the right model can increase your chances. Knowing what to look for in buying a used car will also minimize your risk.
 
#5 ·
isaac-11 said:
I recently purchased a 2011 Rav4 at 162k miles. 4 cylinder. Service history shows that a transmission fluid exchange using WS fluid was performed at 160k with an "auto trans service kit", which I presume means the filter & gasket. Previous to that it got 4 quarts of WS fluid at 100k.

After purchasing it, there were two instances where the car jerked while reversing. It didn't occur right when shifting into reverse, but just after pressing the throttle. Odd, slightly concerning, but nothing unheard of for a car with 162k. At that point, I looked at the service history and did not see the 160k service somehow. Under the impression that the fluid hadn't been changed since 100k, I did a drain and fill of about 3.5 quarts with Valvoline Maxlife. The fluid was completely black and slightly sludgy. I drove for about a week and 200 miles without issues. I then did another drain and fill, again about 3.5 quarts Valvoline.

On the day that I changed the fluid the second time, I drove around for about 30 minutes, fluid level was right between the hot tick marks. Drove again later for an errand for about 30 minutes. No issues. Then, after exiting the highway after about 20 minutes of driving, the transmission refused to shift around 25 mph (which I presume is 2nd to 3rd?). The engine would rev to 4k. I let it rest for a little, drove home (less than a mile) but it still had the same issue. Wouldnt shift above 25 mph.

Now, driving around it just doesn't shift properly. It tugs when upshifting, feels like it revs in neutral slightly when getting below 10 mph during the transition from braking to accelerating. Fluid level is still spot on when warmed up and still red.

I took it to a local transmission shop. He couldn't see any codes on the ECU/ECM. He said he experienced similar drive-ability issues after about 15 minutes, he believes there were times driving where it would start in 2nd or 3rd after braking, times when it would hang in neutral going through gears, and some slippage.

He doesn't really have any conclusive information that would lead to any confidence in making a repair. He seems to be going down the route of either (1) ECU replacement/refurbishment or (2) rebuild the transmission. I'd expect the ECU would be about $1k, transmission somewhere around $4k. Regardless of the exact price, both seem awfully expensive for a car that I just bought for $7.5k.

Here's what I'm thinking in terms of actions:
1) Disconnect the battery overnight. If this helps, that would indicate an ECU issue to me. I doubt this will help, but its free and simple.
2) Drain & fill two more times, but this time with Toyota WS. If that doesn't help, maybe even throw some "magic transmission fix" fluid in there as a hail mary.

What do you all think of dropping the pan and changing the filter? It was recently changed, but who knows, maybe my drain & fill brought some junk that has clogged things up again.

In any case, any advice would be appreciated. Unless it does end up being an ECU issue (unlikely) or Toyota WS really makes it solid again, I'm just thinking to buy time before getting rid of the car while it still drives. I'm thinking to trade it in at a dealer, of course disclosing all that I know.

Cheers,
Isaac

P.S. A few further thoughts on the matter:
It doesn't make sense to me that the fluid would be black and slightly sludgy if it were just changed 2000 miles before. This to me would indicate a problem lurking in the background that was made worse by the fluid swap I did.
The previous owner spent $2k on repairs just 2 months before listing it for sale. I don't believe she was malicious, but this does seem like odd behavior. I wouldn't put $2k into my car if I was thinking of selling it.
Click to expand...
Had the same thing happen to my 2009 middle of this year. Its a bit weird but the transmission issues got fixed when I installed a brand new battery. then for good measure i replaced the coils, spark plugs, cleaned the throttle body and mass sensor and capped it by putting a tube of LUBEGARD® Dr. Tranny Instant Shudder Fix. So far been my car has been running good, got quieter and peppier. but then again YMMV.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
Raverman, that is quite an interesting experience. It sounds like the battery was what really fixed it. That would be quite surprising to me, but maybe it was more of the process of unhooking the ECU/ECM from power for a moment that made it reset. What was your opinion on the LUBEGUARD? Did you notice anything different or was that something you did "just to be sure"?
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
I haven't dropped the pan yet but now plan on doing so. It's a bit odd to me that new fluid would bring out issues, but I suppose it the transmission is accustomed to high viscosity older fluid, then swapping to something newer with lower viscosity could negatively impact it.

I suppose I didn't do all my due diligence since clearly there is an issue here, but there wasn't any indication of transmission issues while test driving it, and the PPI all checked out. I suppose the fluid was dark and maybe that should've been indication enough to walk away. Would everyone else walk away from a car with 162k that drives well if the tranny fluid is dark?

It was only after a few weeks that there were two jerks while reversing that indicated some issue. Regardless, it seems like I might've lost the used car gamble.
 
#8 ·
DL175 said:
Yes it can cost $5000 just ask your Toyota dealer what they charge. If you shop around it can be less if you get a used one and hope the last owner did not skip ATF changes. Buying a used car is a gamble but doing your home work and researching the right model can increase your chances. Knowing what to look for in buying a used car will also minimize your risk.
Click to expand...
We'll I'll fix it for 10k. The dealership just quoted me more than $1k to replace the valve cover gaskets in my Sequoia. Really? I mean it's all business I get that, but if I can swap a rebuilt but guaranteed tranny in an Acura for 2k, why would anyone pay 5k? The RAV4 is even easier. Sometimes dealers toss prices against the wall and see what sticks (paraphrasing :))
 
#9 ·
isaac-11 said:
I haven't dropped the pan yet but now plan on doing so. It's a bit odd to me that new fluid would bring out issues, but I suppose it the transmission is accustomed to high viscosity older fluid, then swapping to something newer with lower viscosity could negatively impact it.

I suppose I didn't do all my due diligence since clearly there is an issue here, but there wasn't any indication of transmission issues while test driving it, and the PPI all checked out. I suppose the fluid was dark and maybe that should've been indication enough to walk away. Would everyone else walk away from a car with 162k that drives well if the tranny fluid is dark?

It was only after a few weeks that there were two jerks while reversing that indicated some issue. Regardless, it seems like I might've lost the used car gamble.
Click to expand...
on older vehicles that had not had tranny fluid changes, the worst thing you can do it to have the system flushed. Flushing sounds good, but in reality, all sorts of debris gets moved, metal shavings, etc. These tend to plug up important passage ways. However, you've just changed the fluid, so I would not think this would cause a problem. It might be that the previous owner bandaged it to move it along. I just looked on carcomplaints, and your model year is pretty solid. Don't panic, just keep working on it. And find a shop that knows a bit more about common sense diagnostics (get your $450 back ;) )
 
#10 ·
isaac-11 said:
I haven't dropped the pan yet but now plan on doing so. It's a bit odd to me that new fluid would bring out issues, but I suppose it the transmission is accustomed to high viscosity older fluid, then swapping to something newer with lower viscosity could negatively impact it.

I suppose I didn't do all my due diligence since clearly there is an issue here, but there wasn't any indication of transmission issues while test driving it, and the PPI all checked out. I suppose the fluid was dark and maybe that should've been indication enough to walk away. Would everyone else walk away from a car with 162k that drives well if the tranny fluid is dark?

It was only after a few weeks that there were two jerks while reversing that indicated some issue. Regardless, it seems like I might've lost the used car gamble.
Click to expand...
You need to understand how everything works with transmission. It is not that simple like engine oil. If you never change your ATF after a long time there can be grit holding the gears from slipping. Once you remove the old ATF then the gears can slip. This is because they are worn out due to old fluid not doing its job properly. Also the filter could be clogged up once the old ATF is loosen up. Don't give up yet until you try a few things.
 
#11 ·
isaac-11 said:
Raverman, that is quite an interesting experience. It sounds like the battery was what really fixed it. That would be quite surprising to me, but maybe it was more of the process of unhooking the ECU/ECM from power for a moment that made it reset. What was your opinion on the LUBEGUARD? Did you notice anything different or was that something you did "just to be sure"?
Click to expand...
Ya its weird. Maybe it was the ECU reset. With the Lubeguard, i "feel" the shifting is "smoother", less shudder especially when stopped in an intersection. My Toyota Advisor dissuaded me from doing the flush as he said too often it causes more problems as DL175 and cgilley explained above. He recommended frequent drain and fill instead and which I did.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Good to hear raverman. I might give the lube guard a shot after changing to Toyota WS, dropping the pan, and trying to reset the ECU by disconnecting the battery. I’d be a little bit surprised if the battery does reset the ECU. I’d think that the ECU would just write to non volatile memory that won’t be cleared when power dies.
 
#14 ·
cgilley said:
on older vehicles that had not had tranny fluid changes, the worst thing you can do it to have the system flushed. Flushing sounds good, but in reality, all sorts of debris gets moved, metal shavings, etc.
Click to expand...
Gotta disagree here. When done properly via the radiator lines the flow isn't pressurized any more than it is in normal driving as in some kind of a "power flush." In fact it's less pressure and flow than normal driving because it's done at idle.

What I wouldn't do that the OP did was mix two different fluids. I'd get all the old WS fluid out while adding the Valvoline. You do that with the method described above.

And I do wonder about the battery. We've seen a weak one cause any and all manner of weird problems. I have friend whose Caravan was starting to shift rough. A new battery fixed it.

And on the ECU, I've never heard of an issue with one on a 4.3, 4.2s yes many, but not 4.3s.

So at this point if trying a different battery doesn't help I'd follow SoNic67's advice.
 
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#15 ·
To the cost item: the $5000 that DL175 quoted would be a ballpark upset limit CDN$ price, at an independent shop in Ontario where he and I are, or at a dealership in the USA. In Georgia where Isaac is, you’d likely see a cost about half that, at about $2500 US$ at a transmission shop, based on what we’ve seen other members post. You’d need to check around on shop reputation though - with transmission work, even the dedicated shops have wildly varying reputations.

That is, IF you need an overhaul. Chances are that as long as it hasn’t been used for heavy towing, or the previous owners were not morbidly obese and carrying 4 people every trip, the transmission isn’t shot.


2012 RAV4 Base FWD.
Upgraded to large front brakes and 3rd row rear springs.
 
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#16 ·
If the fluid was changed at 160K before your purchase it should not have been black - unless that record was incorrect. Also after the drain and fill it should not be black. You need to actually test a drop on a white paper towel - you can't just look at it. I would blot a little on a paper towel now before you do anything more. It should have a pretty good red tinge at minimum. If its completely black your clutch packs are slipping and your trans is toast. I would guess the seller knew this.

If its completely black it has a remote possibility that its not completely shot but the sludge has gotten to the valve body and it won't shift. You could at this point try a self powered flush as Dr. Dyno mentions, which is the only safe way to flush any transmission - period - never let the shop use a machine. You might get lucky but I doubt it. Still its only a couple gallons of Valvoline so its worth a try.

As for the fluid - we can argue all day long about Valvoline vs WS, but the reality is Valvoline is properly rated and even if it wasn't as good it wouldn't kill your trans in 2000 miles. I doubt that is your issue.

If it is toast find a reputable shop and get a rebuilt trans with a warranty. It may seem like its not worth it - but you need to look forward. The money you spent is already lost, and trading now will net you maybe $1000.00 if your lucky. So would you pay $6000.00 right now for that current car with a new transmission? If so it's worth it. The money already spent is water under the bridge.

Good luck!
 
#17 ·
Lowcountry Rav said:
If the fluid was changed at 160K before your purchase it should not have been black - unless that record was incorrect.
Click to expand...
The factory fill of Toyota WS is garbage IMO, it oxidizes very fast. Even at 70k miles when I changed mine it was dark-violet:
www.rav4world.com

2011 RAV4 Limited V6 - SoNic67's Journal

I decided to make a journal of the repairs, mods and miscellaneous for my 2011 RAV4 Limited V6 4WD. The car was bought used, on February 2020, with 70,300 miles. Clean car, no rust, serviced and driven locally. The dash was showing 24 MPG average. Given that now, after 800 miles, with my driving...
www.rav4world.com www.rav4world.com
 
#19 ·
Hi I am new here as of today, 02/17/2023. I recently took our 2020 Rav 4 XLE to my
mechanic and had him to drain the tranny, all that we could anyway, and refill it with
Signature Series Fuel-Efficient Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid.

Anyway, it shifts and operates as smooth as melted butter now. I will go back in 2 weeks for another drain and refill with Amsoil so that I know I will have a majority of the fluid brand new.
It is shifting and performing perfectly.
Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.
I'm also glad to now be a member here.
 
#20 ·
Taurus78 said:
Hi I am new here as of today, 02/17/2023. I recently took our 2020 Rav 4 XLE to my
mechanic and had him to drain the tranny, all that we could anyway, and refill it with
Signature Series Fuel-Efficient Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid.

Anyway, it shifts and operates as smooth as melted butter now. I will go back in 2 weeks for another drain and refill with Amsoil so that I know I will have a majority of the fluid brand new.
It is shifting and performing perfectly.
Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.
I'm also glad to now be a member here.
Click to expand...
At what mileage did you change the ATF?
 
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