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mooki24

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Hi all

Sorry if this post has already been written somewhere else, I did a search but couldn't find anything.

I have a new 2012 Rav4 with Sat Nav included, however I can't input an address unless the car is stopped. This is quite frustrating when my boyfriend is driving and I want to input the address.

Does anyone know if this can be turned off?

THanks
 
A lot of Toyota and Lexus owners are very unhappy about the lockouts. Unfortunately it takes quite a bit of logic circuitry to fool the nav system. It is not just a simple wire to disconnect like on some units in the past.

This unit will do the job on our cars and is plug & play, but it is $309

Prestigious Society » Navigation and Video Enhancement Module » Prestigious Society

The $129 unit looks good but I am not sure it will work on our units. I think mine has to be stopped completely, it only works on systems that let you use the functions up to 5 mph. need to check that.
 
the unit Vanib linked to only has about $10 worth of parts in it, and a complete schematic, so if I find my car does not lock out between 0-5 mph I will build one and report on it.
 
the unit Vanib linked to only has about $10 worth of parts in it, and a complete schematic, so if I find my car does not lock out between 0-5 mph I will build one and report on it.
Bob, looking at the explanation of the 4 mph equivalent square wave, using a 555 to generate it came to mind immediately. http://www.top4runners.com/cgi-bin/image.pl?/ja/2007/navoverride/override_schematic.jpg But why does he need a relay? Just use a SPDT switch to feed the NAV either the normal signal or the 4 mph one. Also why use pots, just use fixed resistor since anything below 5 mph apparently works? That gets you down to 5 components - the 555 two resistors & two caps. Could solder it all together and encapsulate it in clear RTV. A nice little blob with three wires sticking out.
Just some thoughts. :thumbs_up:
 
He said he used the relay because he could not get an spdt switch that he liked. I expect he used the pot to avoid the need for precision resistors that would probably need to be special ordered, and the tolerance of cheap caps is usually 20% so choosing the right value would be trial and error or measuring the cap before choosing the resistor values.

On that topic, do you know a source for rocker switches matching the ones in the dash, without buying them from toyota?

I think that the new nav units also look at the ABS signals from each wheel to see when they are turning, so they can still show location in tunnels and car orientation. I'm not sure this simple fix will work on my car, but I'll check it out soon. If keyboard entry does work up to 5 mph I'll hook up a pulse generator and see if it works before building anything.

It's ridiculous that Toyota did this and still lets us fool with the audio system and entune apps while moving. IMO that is just as dangerous.

I've been using 555's since the first ones came out in '72; one of the most useful devices ever made, as attested to by the fact they are still around.
 
I think that the new nav units also look at the ABS signals from each wheel to see when they are turning, so they can still show location in tunnels and car orientation. I'm not sure this simple fix will work on my car, but I'll check it out soon. If keyboard entry does work up to 5 mph I'll hook up a pulse generator and see if it works before building anything.
I have not heard of any NAV units which use the ABS signals, but many use the signal from the Vehicle Speed Sensor, or VSS as shown in the schematic. This signal is easily accessed on any vehicle with OBDII.

In addition to providing the NAV lockout feature, it is used for the purpose of Dead Reckoning. This allows the NAV unit to approximate it's location for short periods after it loses the satellite signal. This occurs when driving through tunnels or between highrise buildings. If the RAV does use this method, I don't quiet understand why you just can't remove the VSS signal altogether. Why build a circuit to make it look like the vehicle is moving slowly, when you can make it looked parked.

For example my Subaru Legacy with the factory installed Pioneer system never had the VSS connected even though the Pioneer HU has a connection for it. I have never had a situation where I would have benefited from Dead Reckoning.

Unfortunately some NAV units use the GPS receiver itself to determine if the vehicle is moving. This type would require disconnecting the GPS antenna in order to fool the system.

Other units simply require that the parking brake be applied in order to put a ground on the HU input. Of course these are the easiest to bypass.

Other NAV units make use of combinations of the three methods
 
I guess I blast through 5 mph so quick with the V6 that it seemed not to work at slow speeds, but I just tested it and it does work up to 5 mph, so it seems mine likely works the same as the one in the post about defeating the lockout on a different model.

I don't see why it would need pulses at all either, unless maybe a function that sees the gps location moving and no pulses at all locks out in that condition as a "tamper" function. I'll try tying the signal low and see what happens, then the pulse gen. It's going to be sunny and nice tomorrow so I'm headed up to the snow for a few days first.
 
I don't see why it would need pulses at all either, unless maybe a function that sees the gps location moving and no pulses at all locks out in that condition as a "tamper" function. I'll try tying the signal low and see what happens, then the pulse gen.

You are probably correct about the anti tamper function. After additional reading I have heard some people report that the speed pulses are required to defeat the lockout.
 
yep i expect the toyota lawyers told them if it was just a jumper to ground that would not be considered reasonably "tamper-proof". I wonder if the $309 box just has a couple of bucks worth of parts inside. :rolleyes:
 
How to defeat the nav lockouts

Starting with the design from the 4WD guy with a different nav system, I made some measurements on the Pioneer/Toyota unit in my car and figured out how to defeat the lockouts for both nav and phone functions. It's pretty simple and costs less than $10 in parts.

Using the drawing of the radio system posted by our ever helpful narrator, I found that on my car the speed sensor wire is on pin 2 of the 28 pin connector on the HU, and is green. The signal varies from about 0-5V, NOT the 12V used in the original design. 12V might work, or might fry the input and make the system unusable.

The speed sensor pulses occur at about 1 Hz per MPH. The system locks out the nav keyboard functions above 5.5 Hz. in my testing. The bluetooth phone keyboard dialing is disabled if there are any pulses at all.

Disconnecting the speed wire from the nav will enable both functions. There is no "tamper" function. It does not matter how far or how fast we drive; there will be no lockout. The problem with doing this is that the nav system decides when to update based on the speed sensor rate, and it refines the gps location with the known distance traveled and the internal compass. To avoid the location jumping around when not in motion, the gps system ignores small location changes when the car is not supposed to be moving. It only updates every few seconds when there is no speed signal. The location shown and the direction of travel will be off.

When you reconnect the speed wire after driving around with it disconnected, the nav will put on a crazy dance of the vehicle wandering back onto the right track and reorienting as the true position is recalculated. I expect calculating a route would be difficult during that time.

To minimize this problem, we want the replacement speed signal to be as fast as possible, without going over the lockout limit. The slower our replacement signal, the jumpier the gps display and greater the location error. 4 Hz is fast enough for reasonable gps function, and far enough from the upper limit that it is easy to build a circuit with inexpensive components that will vary less than 20% over the expected temperature range, leaving margin for safety. GPS accuracy is NOT as good as the system operating with the speed signal connected.

Phone keypad dialing will not work if there are any speed pulses at all. For the length of time it takes to dial a number the gps will not get too confused or take too long to correct, so just disconnecting the speed signal or shorting it to ground for that brief period is the only solution. Using a series resistor on the 555 output and clamping with a zener would let an additional switch shorting the signal to ground provide dial keypad function when already in lockout defeat mode. I would not recommend just shorting the speed signal to ground.

A 555 in astable mode with a 10% 1 uf poly cap and 180k and 1k 5% resistors would produce about 4 Hz output that should be OK without a pot for those who don't have a scope or other way to adjust the rate. You could also use a .47 uf cap which is a bit more common, and a 360K resistor. The circuit would work with a cheap electrolytic cap, but for $2 or less, a good poly cap is worth using IMO. A 5v zener and 10k resistor can be used to clamp the output to <5v or a 5V regulator used to supply the 555 power, so as not to feed 12V pulses into a 5V input. Total parts cost < $10.

555 timer IC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Putting an LED on the 555 output would let one see the flashes and verify they are 4 per second by counting one-one-thou-sand, and seeing that the flashes are about the same rate.

In the original design he used a relay to select between the 555 pulses or the speed sensor pulses, then used a switch to energize the relay. This lets the switch control power to the circuit as well as switching modes. Power is just a few milliamps and I took it from the ACC line, but using the relay lets a simple OEM foglight or similar SPST switch control the lockout function from a now vacant cutout. The fog light switch is lighted so it will indicate the lockout defeated condition. A multiplexer chip could be used instead of the relay for lower cost, smaller size, higher reliability.

I am not encouraging anyone to do this, just reporting the results of my own experimentation.
 
Excellent explanation Bob-0.

As I said in a previous post, the speed signal is used for dead reckoning, which helps determine location when the GPS signal is lost. I have had numerous Garmin units without Dead Reckoning, and the Pioneer Avic X930BT which was factory installed on my Subaru Legacy also never had the speed sensor connected. I have never been in a situation yet where Dead Reckoning would have helped. Granted the displayed position may jump a little when stopped, but that is a minor consequence compared to the benefits of disabling the lockouts.

One problem you may experience , is that some models of GPS are programmed to give you verbal turn instructions at predefined intervals such as 15 seconds prior to the turn. If your nav unit thinks it is moving very slowly (because of the pulse generator), it may not give the instructions to turn early enough. Of course these other units calculate the speed from the satellite signals to determine warning times.
 
the speed signal is used for dead reckoning, which helps determine location when the GPS signal is lost.
The behavior of my system seems to indicate that it uses the speed signal for more than just dead reckoning when gps is lost. It appears to combine the two with compass readings to get better real time data. It acts like readings might stack up in a queue when there is no speed signal. I drove around for a couple of miles with no speed signal, and when I reconnected it my location was over 100 yards off and the car symbol spun around and jumped several times as it found its way back to the path.

With the 4 Hz replacement signal the nav display is a bit jerkier than in normal mode, but there are not significant position errors over a short time. As I slowed down the pulse generator the position started to jump in bigger increments.
 
With the 4 Hz replacement signal the nav display is a bit jerkier than in normal mode, but there are not significant position errors over a short time. As I slowed down the pulse generator the position started to jump in bigger increments.
A Garmin GPSR recalculates it's location every second regardless of vehicle speed. I'm just guessing here but, it would appear that your unit uses vehicle speed to determine the update interval. I presume this is to spare up CPU cycles to perform other tasks.

When you are traveling at slow speeds, you can get away with slower update intervals. When you fed the unit the 4 Hz/4 MPH pulse, while driving at 30 MPH, it updated it's location less frequently, resulting in the "car" hopping on the map.

When you reconnected the speed signal when your position was off by 100 yards, you say that it corrected itself. I don't think that knowing the car was moving provided the more accurate location. I think the speed signal may have instructed the unit to stop sitting idle, and update it's location.

If this theory is correct, I think it will become a big problem when driving in an area where intersections are close together. You could be already past the intersection before the GPS updates your location and notifies you.

I wonder if there is another alternative. For example my Pioneer won't let me do anything unless the parking brake is on. If I permanently ground the PB signal, the unit gives me error messages when I start to drive. The secret to defeating this unit is an unused pin on the rear connector. There isn't even a contact in the connector cavity. You have to insert a contact and then ground this new wire and the PB wire, and everything is good. Perhaps this backdoor is provided for areas that have different laws, or just a way to give them an edge in product sales.
 
Like you say we are only guessing, but the way my unit recovered in a number of steps where it changed the indicated direction of travel and location before finally arriving at the correct coordinates could not be just the update rate. There must be something more going on. Could it be that this $3200 unit does something the much less expensive Garmin does not?

At 30 mph driving through town, with the 4 Hz update rate substitution, I noticed an error of less than a hundred feet or so, but it could accumulate. I think the lockout disable should only be used when necessary and not left on.

Here's a simple schematic for those interested. The relay could be replaced with an spdt switch if the circuit is powered all the time from the ACC line.

There is an error in the original schematic, the anode of the zener should be connected to ground and not to the C1 Pin2 net. The attached file is now correct, though a bit sloppy as I edited it without using the cad software. I didn't bother to save the original file when converting it to .png. I'm still programmed not to waste disk space. Now that I have a TB instead of the 8MB on my first AT I should be less thrifty of disk space.
 

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I don't have either system in my RAV but it seems to me from Bob's study a simple SPST switch which would disconnect the VSS signal while you dial the phone or input an address would do all that's needed. Just turn it back on as soon as you're done. No circuit needed. The fact that the GPS/NAV didn't update while entering an address is a non-issue and I'm sure while dialing isn't really either. Or am I missing something?
 
I think the lockout disable should only be used when necessary and not left on.

Here's a simple schematic for those interested. The relay could be replaced with an spdt switch if the circuit is powered all the time from the ACC line.
I think that connecting the pulse generator only when you need to enter a new destination, is the best option. The rest of the time your system will work normally with full speed updates. When you are programming a new destination you really don't care that the system is inaccurate for that short period.

I have a question regarding the position of the Zener. You have the anode connected to the top of C1. I would expect that if you are trying to limit the voltage into the NAV unit, that you would reference the Zener to ground. I think that the Zener in this position would also change the charge/discharge rate of C1 and alter the timing. Also in your writeup you mentioned a 10K resistor in series with the output, but your diagram shows a 1K resistor, which I think is more suitable.
 
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