So....I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere on the forum, but given the current winter conditions, I was wondering how the Prime handles in the snow? Is there a setting to allow traction to all 4 wheels all the time or does the system simply decide to send power to the front or back based upon "slippage?"
blitt
I’ll let others explain the tech details, and there are videos on YouTube explaining the AWD system. But coming from a MT Subaru Crosstrek and living in rural Canada, I have to say that the Prime is much more fun and safe in snow. There’s a “Trail” mode for snow and it does a really good job at keeping traction. There’s something exhilarating about plowing through snow in silent EV mode.
I've only driven my RAV4 Prime a little bit in the snow, but it seems to perform quite well. Certainly slippage will trigger the various anti-skid systems, but I'm not sure how important that is. Another poster, who seemed much more familiar with the Toyota stability systems, referred to what they called "slip and grip". The idea being that "slip and grip" is a very primitive way to create traction control. From what I understand, Toyota goes well beyond slip and grip. Consider the Moose Test. The regular RAV4 did not pass this test, about a year ago. Toyota responded by reprogramming the stability software, and now the car will pass. There is a lot more going on besides slip and grip.
In the various forums and online reviews, there is an endless amount of information about how well a car can get itself off of multiple sets of rollers, or how well it can rock climb, or how well it climbs a rocky/muddy/snowy hill. There is some merit to some of these tests, especially if you are interested in getting into the back country, even if just on fire roads. And you might not get stuck in a snowy parking space. But I think these tests completely fail to cover one important area, which is performance at speed. I don't mean at 100mph. But say, consider cornering at 25 mph on a snow packed road. Toyota does design for this, (as do other manufacturers), but they don't seem to advertise it much. This is Audi's thing- cars that corner faster and handle better because of All Wheel Drive. I know at least a few folks on this forum have tried to make there cars do donuts in the snow, and while I guess it's possible, it's pretty hard to do. Thus showing how a computer can drive better than a human in some cases.
It's easy to put a car on a set of rollers and see what it does. Or drive up a hill such as to put two wheels off the ground. These tests are not entirely useless, and they are easy, (and cheap), to do. But they miss the point of a major aspect of all wheel drive, which is that a well designed AWD system can corner faster and maintain control better than RWD, FWD or a 4x4. However, testing for this is expensive, as you really need to use a track and compare lap times between models. It's a shame though, because the auto manufacturer put a lot of effort into it that largely goes unnoticed.
In the various forums and online reviews, there is an endless amount of information about how well a car can get itself off of multiple sets of rollers, or how well it can rock climb, or how well it climbs a rocky/muddy/snowy hill. There is some merit to some of these tests, especially if you are interested in getting into the back country, even if just on fire roads. And you might not get stuck in a snowy parking space. But I think these tests completely fail to cover one important area, which is performance at speed. I don't mean at 100mph. But say, consider cornering at 25 mph on a snow packed road. Toyota does design for this, (as do other manufacturers), but they don't seem to advertise it much. This is Audi's thing- cars that corner faster and handle better because of All Wheel Drive. I know at least a few folks on this forum have tried to make there cars do donuts in the snow, and while I guess it's possible, it's pretty hard to do. Thus showing how a computer can drive better than a human in some cases.
It's easy to put a car on a set of rollers and see what it does. Or drive up a hill such as to put two wheels off the ground. These tests are not entirely useless, and they are easy, (and cheap), to do. But they miss the point of a major aspect of all wheel drive, which is that a well designed AWD system can corner faster and maintain control better than RWD, FWD or a 4x4. However, testing for this is expensive, as you really need to use a track and compare lap times between models. It's a shame though, because the auto manufacturer put a lot of effort into it that largely goes unnoticed.
I have Bridgestone Blizzaks on mine and live in a very hilly area with moderate snow, frequent ice due to rapid temperature changes, and very little winter road maintenance. It has been working great!
I have a little fun trying to get it to break out, for example, by flooring it while turning uphill when going back to my house and I definitely can get it to kind of fishtail a bit, but I really have to try and it's very quick about correcting itself. I actually haven't tried it in Trail mode yet, almost exclusively Normal mode and mostly in EV mode.
I don't know how accurate the AWD meter is in the center instrument display, but it does show that there is power going to the rear wheels whenever you're accelerating from a stop in any condition. That seems correct to me based on how it feels starting from a stop light or stop sign.
I have a little fun trying to get it to break out, for example, by flooring it while turning uphill when going back to my house and I definitely can get it to kind of fishtail a bit, but I really have to try and it's very quick about correcting itself. I actually haven't tried it in Trail mode yet, almost exclusively Normal mode and mostly in EV mode.
I don't know how accurate the AWD meter is in the center instrument display, but it does show that there is power going to the rear wheels whenever you're accelerating from a stop in any condition. That seems correct to me based on how it feels starting from a stop light or stop sign.
For somebody who can’t store a set of tires and likes winter sports is all weather tire with a ‘snow in a mountain’ symbol the best option?
As a year round tires.
As a year round tires.
Do a search for "all weather" tires. There is a new class of tires emerging that are way better than all season. And they will have the mountain snowflake. However, I've read some stuff that suggests that the mountain snowflake is not actually a very severe test, so there are lots of all season tires with the snowflake. For starters, maybe check out the Nokian WR G4 or the Michelin Cross Climate. These look like very good tires. And there are some others. I would not rely on the mountain snowflake alone.
The R4P goes quite well in the snow, in my experience, even with stock tires. It's the stopping in the snow that isn't real great, but purpose-built snow tires would almost certainly make it do even better. Enjoy!
Couldn’t be happier with our Prime in the snow.
We finally got a substantial snow storm in Utah and I drove 28 miles to work which is usually 30 min but today it was 1:25 min
Battery held up the entire time and no slipping
At first I drove 50 mph in a 65 zone in trail mode and no slipping while it was a blizzard.
Very happy and I was using stock all season tires and snow was about 12 inches deep and no snow plow had hit the pavement.
If it is legal in your parts all season tires in trail mode is all you need driving in 12 inches of heavy wet snow at 40 -50 mph
Russ
We finally got a substantial snow storm in Utah and I drove 28 miles to work which is usually 30 min but today it was 1:25 min
Battery held up the entire time and no slipping
At first I drove 50 mph in a 65 zone in trail mode and no slipping while it was a blizzard.
Very happy and I was using stock all season tires and snow was about 12 inches deep and no snow plow had hit the pavement.
If it is legal in your parts all season tires in trail mode is all you need driving in 12 inches of heavy wet snow at 40 -50 mph
Russ
I have 17 inch Bridgestone blizzaks on my XSE, which is my ski car that spends considerable time in the mountains without any issues.
I got high centered last Saturday. Storm bad brought in a huge dumping of snow. There were places in our neighborhood with wind blown spots where it was much more. Some places I could see the roads and some places it was more than couple of feet. I was ploughing through initially and for a brief moment there I let go of throttle and lost some speed. And slowly it came to a full stop. I realized I got high centered because all 4 wheels were spinning. Many many tow trucks were stuck in our neighborhood, MDX, X4, F150 stock, older ram with AT tires. Were all stuck nearby. After hours of digging snow and helping each other we freed many cars (I had a shovel in my car). But it was an island where I had to park because it was impassable for me to turn around.
Finally an amazing neighbor of mine with a lifted RAM 2500 Diesel and AT tires ( and chains), he was going to get coffee with his family in middle of the storm. He literally stopped to help me, and connected a strap to my rear and he pulled me out. Without his help I would have had to abandon the prime for couple days until everything thawed. His truck must have had at least 14 inches GC.
I have deep respect for capabilities of those lifted trucks and jeeps. I am still going to use my Rav because it’s greener and cheaper for now. Some day when they make greener capable cars, I will upgrade.
lessons learned for me:
In retrospect, if I had driven the car on S1 or S2 instead of just leaving it in D and trying. I might have slightly better chances.
When it comes to very deep snow, crossovers don’t stand a chance. Like I said, even trucks got stuck in the same place. So don’t push your luck on deep snow. Driving over 2 feet of packed snow is different than newly dumped wet stuff.
Carry chains if you have SE. if you have XSE like me, stay home until it clears (I have winter tires but can’t put chains for icy conditions. I hate to use studded tires for damage it does to public roads.
survey your path, get down and walk up to get an idea of what you are dealing with. every vehicle has limitations, it’s important to have an assessment and strategy for how you are going to pass.
carry shovel, traction boards if you are going to hit adverse conditions.
Last weekend I was going skiing so, luckily I was prepared to be outdoors with my boots, gloves, ski pants. So I ended up spending close to 4 hrs outside. Adverse weather is no joke. Don’t push your luck.
I still agree it’s got a nice 8 inch gc, which better than 6inches. So you should be fine for most of what’s out there. Have fun and be safe.
I got high centered last Saturday. Storm bad brought in a huge dumping of snow. There were places in our neighborhood with wind blown spots where it was much more. Some places I could see the roads and some places it was more than couple of feet. I was ploughing through initially and for a brief moment there I let go of throttle and lost some speed. And slowly it came to a full stop. I realized I got high centered because all 4 wheels were spinning. Many many tow trucks were stuck in our neighborhood, MDX, X4, F150 stock, older ram with AT tires. Were all stuck nearby. After hours of digging snow and helping each other we freed many cars (I had a shovel in my car). But it was an island where I had to park because it was impassable for me to turn around.
Finally an amazing neighbor of mine with a lifted RAM 2500 Diesel and AT tires ( and chains), he was going to get coffee with his family in middle of the storm. He literally stopped to help me, and connected a strap to my rear and he pulled me out. Without his help I would have had to abandon the prime for couple days until everything thawed. His truck must have had at least 14 inches GC.
I have deep respect for capabilities of those lifted trucks and jeeps. I am still going to use my Rav because it’s greener and cheaper for now. Some day when they make greener capable cars, I will upgrade.
lessons learned for me:
In retrospect, if I had driven the car on S1 or S2 instead of just leaving it in D and trying. I might have slightly better chances.
When it comes to very deep snow, crossovers don’t stand a chance. Like I said, even trucks got stuck in the same place. So don’t push your luck on deep snow. Driving over 2 feet of packed snow is different than newly dumped wet stuff.
Carry chains if you have SE. if you have XSE like me, stay home until it clears (I have winter tires but can’t put chains for icy conditions. I hate to use studded tires for damage it does to public roads.
survey your path, get down and walk up to get an idea of what you are dealing with. every vehicle has limitations, it’s important to have an assessment and strategy for how you are going to pass.
carry shovel, traction boards if you are going to hit adverse conditions.
Last weekend I was going skiing so, luckily I was prepared to be outdoors with my boots, gloves, ski pants. So I ended up spending close to 4 hrs outside. Adverse weather is no joke. Don’t push your luck.
I still agree it’s got a nice 8 inch gc, which better than 6inches. So you should be fine for most of what’s out there. Have fun and be safe.
My 2005 4Runner and my RAV4 prime have about the same ground clearance. At least technically. However, the clearance on the 4Runner is defined by the rear differential, and the rest of the vehicle has much more clearance. Meanwhile, the RAV4 Prime has that giant flat battery pan under it. You could probably take the car tobogganing if you found the right hill. So yeah, the ground clearance number is not everything.
Living parttime in the Alps in Austria (driving a Merc GLK 4motion for 10 years) my personal experiences are that winter tires are much better than all season tires, all wheel or not. The moment it really matters is when you need to break, not when you pull out of a snowy parking lot. Besides the rubber composition of winter tires is optimized for cold temperatures, so they are superior on dry winter roads as well.
I ordered an additional set of Conti Contact winter tires for my R4P, of course.
I ordered an additional set of Conti Contact winter tires for my R4P, of course.
This is a huge concern to me, regarding snow and ice. My CX5 does amazing in snow and on ice, and I have a very steep drive way. My CX5 can confidently accelerate on ice that is so slick that if you gently hit the brakes, you slide a long ways, and when you stop moving forward...you slide off the side of the road. I would never drive in this, but the AWD is so good it allows acceleration on it just fine. My driveway is steep AF. I literally cannot explain to you how steep it is, but my CX5's have managed it in snow and in the dry. Here is a video explaining what I am expecting my Prime to handle as well as my Mazda's. I hope it do.
IMHO its false economy to not buy snow tires if someone lives in a snow zone and is planning to own a Prime for the long term. If someone is in it for the long term they will wear out a set of tires once possibly twice over the life of the vehicle. Buying and using snow tires effectively extends the life of the original tires shipped with the Prime. In my case I do most of my driving in non snow season but when I do drive in the winter I want to get where I am going. I do "splurge" on buying steel rims and getting the snows mounted once. After that I have them ready to go in the fall and swap them when I think I will need them. That usually allows me to wait a bit and avoid the rush at the local tire shops when there is bad weather expected. In the spring I can swap back earlier to summer tires. Worse case is swap them out.
A side benefit is it reduces the number of times that mechanics get a hold of the wheel lugs. I have had two cases over the years of cars getting serviced and returned with lug nuts that were just hand tight. In one case I almost lost a wheel (2 gone) 3 loose with stud damage. I have mag locks on the Prime and swap them out before I go to the dealer and check the other lug nuts when I get the car back.
A side benefit is it reduces the number of times that mechanics get a hold of the wheel lugs. I have had two cases over the years of cars getting serviced and returned with lug nuts that were just hand tight. In one case I almost lost a wheel (2 gone) 3 loose with stud damage. I have mag locks on the Prime and swap them out before I go to the dealer and check the other lug nuts when I get the car back.
I’m with you JWG223 in that I like high quality all season tires over winter tire & hassle of changing tires 2/year (and I live in bad winter Syracuse NY). I say I will not drive in the worst weather, but I do when I have/want to. In the past in my Prius v. when I went out in a blizzard on my Cross Contact tires, I got to see I-81 freeway turn into a skating rink. Vehicles fishtailing/sliding all over the highway and SUVs in ditches at most trouble corners/stops. In the snow, I get the speed right (slow) and I got where I want to be in my Gen III Prius v (wagon). Now with my R4Prime I feel more stable/in control with stock tires as I did in my previous Prius v with high quality all seasons. The upgrade to e-AWD and all hybrid systems (over the Prius v) and winter driving testing tells me that the R4Prime will be my best winter ride (and best vehicle owned).
Last winter I tried to loose control on turns in my R4Prime and I was AMAZED how well it recovered and continued in the direction I wanted. I finally turned Traction Control off (press and HOLD button or it only partial/temp deactivated) and the Rear Motor Generator (RMG) gave enough power to quickly kick the rear out and gave me a great thrill and made me exclaim (to nobody) “HOLLY SH*T”. Then I tried with traction control ON, 20-30 MPG, turn the steering wheel hard, keep foot on gas and … my R4Prime carved out a big circle (x3 spec turning radius approx) in the icy parking lot. With traction control it actually turned and managed power when it was not holding the turn (working on millisecond time scale). So I just felt like I was in a lazy powered turn with lots of antilock brake noise going on.
But this is my tire choice I arrived at for me. I still think that winter tires are the HIGHEST quality for winter roads and will give you the BEST winter protection against everything. If you anyone is thinking “I’d like to not die in the rain or snow” then maybe they should make time for changing back and forth to winter tires to give yourself the lowest chances of bad outcomes (or not drive in bad winter weather).
I wanted to share my R4Prime and Prius v winter driving experience, my tire choices, and a last warning.
(If you drive in bad winter weather and) If you can’t afford to loose what is in your R4Pirme (family/lives), then protect R4Prime. and everything in it, with good dedicated winter tires and deal with the hassle.
I know; Do what I say, not what I do. It is still worth putting out there. It’s complicated.
Last winter I tried to loose control on turns in my R4Prime and I was AMAZED how well it recovered and continued in the direction I wanted. I finally turned Traction Control off (press and HOLD button or it only partial/temp deactivated) and the Rear Motor Generator (RMG) gave enough power to quickly kick the rear out and gave me a great thrill and made me exclaim (to nobody) “HOLLY SH*T”. Then I tried with traction control ON, 20-30 MPG, turn the steering wheel hard, keep foot on gas and … my R4Prime carved out a big circle (x3 spec turning radius approx) in the icy parking lot. With traction control it actually turned and managed power when it was not holding the turn (working on millisecond time scale). So I just felt like I was in a lazy powered turn with lots of antilock brake noise going on.
But this is my tire choice I arrived at for me. I still think that winter tires are the HIGHEST quality for winter roads and will give you the BEST winter protection against everything. If you anyone is thinking “I’d like to not die in the rain or snow” then maybe they should make time for changing back and forth to winter tires to give yourself the lowest chances of bad outcomes (or not drive in bad winter weather).
I wanted to share my R4Prime and Prius v winter driving experience, my tire choices, and a last warning.
(If you drive in bad winter weather and) If you can’t afford to loose what is in your R4Pirme (family/lives), then protect R4Prime. and everything in it, with good dedicated winter tires and deal with the hassle.
I know; Do what I say, not what I do. It is still worth putting out there. It’s complicated.
I am admittedly completely ignorant when it comes to tires. I know my way around a car's drivetrain and interior fairly well, but tires I just never bothered to learn much.
I live in a climate where there's measurable snow about once every five years. Like most southern states, we all just collectively decide to stay home when faced with moderately heavy snow and ice (except Texas who decides to enter the dark ages). I am I wrong in thinking it'd be a complete waste of money for me to buy snow tires? I fear they would dry rot before ever seeing any action…
I live in a climate where there's measurable snow about once every five years. Like most southern states, we all just collectively decide to stay home when faced with moderately heavy snow and ice (except Texas who decides to enter the dark ages). I am I wrong in thinking it'd be a complete waste of money for me to buy snow tires? I fear they would dry rot before ever seeing any action…
Quebec province is a snowy province. (I live about 60 miles south in northern NH in a snow zone). It includes major metropolitan areas (Quebec and Montreal) . My understanding is the province did formal studies and came to the conclusion that All Season tires were inadequate for winter use in the province. I believe that its not optional, snow tires are required for all Quebec registered vehicles. The basis for this was the study that actual snow tire use reduces accidents compared to All Seasons.
All Season tires are not necessarily tested for winter driving, its a design standard. If folks are familiar with the Mountain/Snowflake symbol, that is a performance standard based on actual testing. Some All Season tires may have the Mountain/Snowflake symbol but my guess is most do not as in order to make them suitable to pass the Mountain/Snowflake symbol tests, the rubber compounds will be optimized for cold weather traction which is going to mean reduced tire life at elevated temperatures. To further confuse things, there are M+S rated tires. They are tested for packed snow or mud but not for ice so they can be made with standard temp rubber rather than low temp rubber. Its basically a tread design standard. They may be great for snowplowing but most folks stud them for normal road use. If they are not studded on icy roads they are arguably no better than All Season.
Even a non studded snow tire with the Mountain/Snowflake symbol still is a compromise, studs are the way to go from traction basis but they are noisy and can really chew up pavement.
All Season tires are not necessarily tested for winter driving, its a design standard. If folks are familiar with the Mountain/Snowflake symbol, that is a performance standard based on actual testing. Some All Season tires may have the Mountain/Snowflake symbol but my guess is most do not as in order to make them suitable to pass the Mountain/Snowflake symbol tests, the rubber compounds will be optimized for cold weather traction which is going to mean reduced tire life at elevated temperatures. To further confuse things, there are M+S rated tires. They are tested for packed snow or mud but not for ice so they can be made with standard temp rubber rather than low temp rubber. Its basically a tread design standard. They may be great for snowplowing but most folks stud them for normal road use. If they are not studded on icy roads they are arguably no better than All Season.
Even a non studded snow tire with the Mountain/Snowflake symbol still is a compromise, studs are the way to go from traction basis but they are noisy and can really chew up pavement.
Still waiting on the R4P, but on my Taco the BFG AT (KO2s) are snowflake rated and handle well in the deep stuff as well as any dedicated snow tires I've had on a truck. Switched the Jetta (soon to be gone for the R4P) to Vredstein Quatrac Pros and they handle in the dry as well as the previous Michelin Premier A/S. Won't get a chance to run them in the snow yet (and likely won't) but the tests say they're a lot better in the snow. No summer tires for me, up here in the PNW we're rainy too often for that. Once the OEMs wear down on the prime, we'll likely go with CC2s if I can catch a costco sale.
To be fair, what your choice is depends on your weather conditions, but the new A/W tires could do pretty good.
To be fair, what your choice is depends on your weather conditions, but the new A/W tires could do pretty good.
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