How are you tracking your gas and EV distance?

 

I was able to track my gas mileage by resetting my trip meter as soon as switched from EV mode. I travel some long trips and those are the only times I have used gas. I wrote down info right away and calculated MPG after filling up gas tank. To get my EV miles I subtracted actual gas miles from my odometer reading of 2,245.

I am using the level 1 charger that comes with the car so I have no way of knowing how much electric energy is used to charge my battery from empty to full. I have seen calculations on this board from 14 to 15.5 of the total battery capacity of 18.1. I am not sure which one I should use.

 

If you pay 18c/kWh and the regular gas is $2.00/gallon then 1 gallon of gas is equivalent to 11.1 kWh (cost wise).

You are getting 3.9 miles per kWh. Multiply it by 11.1 you you get 43.3 miles per per 11.1 kWh (cost equivalent of 1 gallon of gas). Almost no benefit compared to gasoline only hybrid 40 mpg.

This is what I have been saying all along - electric cars do not save you money (compared to a hybrid) in states with high electricity costs (California, Massachusetts, etc). Here in MA I pay 23 cents/kWh. If I had a Prime it would be cheaper to just never charge it.

Only buy Tesla/Prime if you need a sports car performance.

 

Only buy Tesla/Prime if you need a sports car performance.

Not quite, different states have different perks or rebates on Prime which could even price it less then hybrid. Besides that Prime is much quieter and quick off the line then hybrid so if you are lucky to get one at msrp it's certainly could make a great bang over hybrid. Sports car it's not as handling has been reported isn't great. Tesla has an edge in that for your cash.

 

Those are awesome numbers, keep driving the way you are, congrats! Based on your miles/kwh it looks like your breakeven is approx. $1.89/gal of gasoline.

 

How are you calculating that?

 

The Rav 4 Prime if you are basing it only on energy cost is not a huge savings when gasoline is $2 a gallon assuming the gasoline is burned up in a hybrid netting 40 mpg.

This is what the numbers reveal.

Assume Hybrid
40 mpg = $2 gasoline

Your Prime
40 miles / 3.9 miles kWh = 10.25 x .18 cents = $1.85 cents

.15 cents savings running EV

I have argued from day one cheap gas equals no savings.

we bought because of the $7,500 Federal Tax credit brings it within $1,500 of a hybrid Rav 4.

If there is a change in Presidency this fall there will be a focus on renewable energy and fossil fuels including gasoline will go up making a Prime a better decision if based on energy costs.

However, if gasoline goes up the demand for EVs will also go up making electric powered automobiles more expensive.

I hedged my bet gasoline will go up by purchasing a Prime now.

 

However, if gasoline goes up the demand for EVs will also go up making electric powered automobiles more expensive.

Makes no sense. I see Tesla selling more cars vs 2012 plus they lost the $7500 tax credit yet prices actually went down.

 

Robin2:

FYI... If you have a Harbor Freight nearby, they also sell the "Kill A Watt" meter for $25 (I've seen one in my local Harbor Freight store). Amazon has lots of other brands too.

Harbor Freight "Kill A Watt"

I haven't seen a similar meter that plugs into a 50A, 240V Nema 14-50 socket which is often used for Level 2 chargers. But many Level 2 chargers have a display built-in which show the total kWhrs used. The higher end chargers can also send the info to a phone app. Amazon has panels you can wire into your circuit to do the same, but that takes extra effort and might need and electrician.

I also have a question for you because I wasn't clear on your initial statement that you took your "total electric bill" and divided by your usage. The total bill will usually have recurring monthly charges which you pay whether you have an EV or not. I assume you subtracted out those recurring charges and thought I'd ask to be sure...

 

Yes I did subtract them out because I would have to pay them no matter what the amount of usage was. They are flat charges That hit my bill no matter what.

Thanks for the info on the charger, but I already ordered the one that CH420 recommended. It looked good.

 

I pay $6.5 for one gallon of medium grade fuel and the electricity cost is about the same as yours.

So for me it is 4x more expensive to run fuel eventhough the hybrid mode is very efficient.

I bet that is why they sold 1200 out of the 1500 allocated for my region unseen..

 

Resurrecting this thread to provide another counterpoint to all the posts here and on reddit about how electric is not cost-effective. Because it definitely is for me.

I live on the East Coast US and pay 9-10 cents per kWh (no ToU plans), much less than other posters it seems. In September the marginal cost per additional kWh was about 9.2 cents. After a few weeks with the R4P I'm getting 3.5 mi/kWh total average; trip averages are typically higher so I expect this to keep going up. Assuming I get 38 mpg total average in hybrid mode, and assuming 92% charging efficiency (I have a level 2 charger), I'm paying the equivalent of $1.09 per gallon in electricity. Compare that to $2.39/gal for actual fuel at my closest gas station - though I'm sure there are cheaper places if I bothered to drive around more.

And all of this completely ignores the fact that I have a rooftop solar system that generates more than 100% of my household electricity usage in any given month, and I live in a region with full net metering. (And with high SREC prices so despite the upfront cost, that combined with tax credits meant that the solar system paid for itself within 5 years.) Of course not everyone has that setup, so it's nice to know that even without it, the math still works in favor of electric.

But of course I really am doing all this for environmental as much as economic benefits, so there's that as well.

 

...how electric is not cost-effective...

Very true and not all calculate that but we still want one...

But of course I really am doing all this for environmental as much as economic benefits, so there's that as well.

Reminded me of decade ago when I was telling that myself when I got Leaf followed by Volt, actually both times it was the same excuse "for environmental reasons" and now I am back to regular gassers which make more economic sense for now. I just moved closer and drive less (especially during these times) and that will do better for environment, for your wallet and for your health.

Prime eventually will make some economic sense when Toyota opens up normal supply where dealers won't rip you off at msrp and above prices, might be couple years before we get there.

 

There is another benefit for some as well. If you make a lot of short trips, an electric vehicle makes a lot of sense. My prius Prime gets about 75mpg driving slowly, (~35mph). It gets much less than that starting up. On a 5 mile trip, I'll get more like 40 mpg. And because cars try to warm up quickly, to lower other pollutants, it actually increases the CO2 output per mile. Plus you avoid the whole wear and tear for short trips, although it's been a while since most folks "wore out" an engine. They are pretty well built now.

So warm up avoidance is pretty significant for me.

 

There is another benefit for some as well. If you make a lot of short trips, an electric vehicle makes a lot of sense. My prius Prime gets about 75mpg driving slowly, (~35mph). It gets much less than that starting up. On a 5 mile trip, I'll get more like 40 mpg. And because cars try to warm up quickly, to lower other pollutants, it actually increases the CO2 output per mile. Plus you avoid the whole wear and tear for short trips, although it's been a while since most folks "wore out" an engine. They are pretty well built now.

So warm up avoidance is pretty significant for me.

I agree with this completely. I noticed the same thing on short trips in hybrid mode on my old Prius. I was hoping using all electric for short trips would be energy saving on the Rav4P.

 

Good thread. In terms of cost to own, where can I find the following cost comparison that takes into consideration fuel costs, electricity, maintenance, and repairs? Assume a 60 mile round trip commute and 10 years of ownership.

Rav4 Hybrid vs RV4P vs Highlander vs Highlander Hybrid vs Tesla Model Y

 

Highlander and Y are not in the same price category and and fuel cost savings and we can only speculate maintenance cost, but fuel cost wise it's between Rav4 Hybrid and Prime. With that kind of mileage (~20k per year) here is what it looks for you with assumption that you are paying $5k premium for Prime over hybrid option after all credits etc..:

Lets assume that prices are all the same for electricity and gas and your car is trouble free (only usual maintenance) for 200k or 10 years.

At $3 per gallon it will be $1500 per year for hybrid.
Lets say that you are saving half with Prime running on EV mostly at $750 per year on filling it up between EV/gas
Which makes it that in ~6.5 years ($5000/$750) you will break even with Prime over hybrid or after 133k miles. The reminder 3.5 years you will save $2600 with Prime until it reaches 10 year mark or 200k miles. And this is really best case scenario.

 

I've only got about 1200 miles but on short in-town trips I regularly get 4.5 mi/kWh or even better. My total average is 3.6 mi/kWh and still rising, and the numbers seem to check out.

 

This was a mind game I worked out on a long overnight drive... be patient please.
Using the estimated 3.84 miles per kWh that the model 3 gets (I believe with a 310 mile range) and using a 100 mile block for comparison...
100/3.84=26.04 kWh
26.04×.115(cents per kW my C.U. rate)=$2.99
2.99/1.75(current price per gal in my town)=1.71 gallons used
100 miles/1.71 gal = 58 mpg equivalent
HOWEVER...
if gas goes to 2.99 per gal the equivalent will be a 100 mpg car.
OR
If C.U. rates go to .15 cents per kWh
Then the equivalent will be 44mpg ( if gas is still 1.75 per gal)

Then I considered this..

Model 3 has 75kWh battery
75×3.84=288 (missing 22 miles.. reserve?)
Rav prime? 18kWh battery with rated 49 miles.. = 2.72 miles per kWh..
You can finish the formula from there and the rav will be cheaper on gas.
THIS is why I am happy to see the 3.9 miles as shown above.
Great news but bottom line is..
Get solor and return on investment will be awesome !

 

Get solor and return on investment will be awesome !

In how many decades? (assuming average number of miles per year)

 

That's the point. With a professional installation your looking at decades. But add an electric vehicle and that will shorten those years. But a system installed yourself grid tied and inspected to stay legal you could see a return in well under 10 years.
I was going to go with a $5995 system using Canadian solar panels from wholesale solar but covid killed the plan for this year and .. well, I am too old to restart that idea.
If I were younger it would be a no-brainer.

 

Rick,

Solar looses efficiency overtime and in USA there is only a 10 year warranty.

I am paying .09 cents per kWh with a 1% annual inflation rate over the last 18 years.

I will be dead and the panels will be halved in efficiency when I break even.

Solar is a poor investment in USA and the power back to the grid is no longer dollar for dollar.

There are talks In my state the .09 cents per kWh back to the grid be reduced to .01 cents.

That is a non-starter whacking back to the grid electricity you don’t use from .09 cents to .01 cents per kWh

 

Sorry, typing in a bouncing vehicle has strange consequences..lost all I typed.
You may be right .. but it has been argued.
Have you seen the rates in San Diego?
Awful, yet lots of Teslas. (Wierd)
You are blessed with those rates.
May I ask what state u r in?

 

I agree with CH420. I suggest performing the calculation this way:

FIRST STEP: How much does your power actually cost per kwH?

The only way to do this is from your bill. In that way, you include your taxes, delivery fees, and any other weird stuff the power company adds on. First, deduct any fixed costs. For me, Eversource charges a $7.00 customer fee that exists even if I use 0 kwH. Then I divide the net by the number of kilowatts used. For me, that is 23.119 cents per kilowatt hour. (Yes, it is very high here in Western Massachusetts. No, we do not have nighttime rates. And, yes, now you know why I am installing solar panels this year.)

SECOND STEP: How much does it cost to go one mile?

My RAVE4 PRIME car keeps telling me that I am getting 3.2 miles per kilowatt on average. It does higher. But, I will take 3.2 miles per kilowatt-hour. So, I divide 23.199 cents by 3.2 to get 7.25 cents per mile.

THIRD STEP: How many miles can I go in EV mode until HV kicks in? And, how much did I spent?

I did a test yesterday in a nice sixty degree day with a bunch of hills and traffic lights. I do get the advertised 43 miles before the engine kicks in. So, 43 time 7.25 cents comes to $3.13 to "fill the battery tank."

ANOTHER FUN CALCULATION IS EQUIVALENT GALLON COST:

The car gets an advertised 38 mpg on gas. So, how much do I save using electicity per gallon? Well, 38 times 7.25 is $2.76 Equivalent Gallon cost. In other words, if I only used hybrid mode right now, and one gallon would take me 38 miles and costs $4.25. In EV mode, my gallon equivalent for 38 miles costs $2.76. Savings using even my expensive electricity is $1.49 -- which is close enough to a buck and a half. If I do that 300 days per year, I have saved $450. Woo! Hoo!

What do you guys think of this math?

 

What do you guys think of this math?

I got stuck on your electric rates and couldn’t look further.

I did the same math before I bought mine and determined it to cost 2.7¢/mile to drive on my home electric power. I spend about $15-25 charging every month.

 

So, I have more information on this.

Yesterday, I drove about 45-49 miles on a full charge and then went into HV mode. I plugged into a Chargepoint terminal and got 15.082 kWh supplied. At home, my cost per kWh is 23.119 cents. So, a full charge at full electric rates would be $3.486. If I take a low end of 45 miles, the cost would be 7.7 cents per mile when in EV mode.

For comparison, It is also getting about 42 MPG on gas. If we take $4.50 for a gallon, that is 10.7 per mile in hybrid mode.

That means I get a 28% savings in EV mode over hybrid mode.

I live in a semi-rural area. So most miles are on two-lane hilly roads. Very little mileage on the interstate.

 

Do others agree that a full charge, (~15kwh) is about the equivelent of 1 gallon of gasoline? Makes for a handy comparison.

 

It's pretty simple. ~15kw times your cost/kw, mine is .11 cents is $1.65 to fully charge. My .11 cents/kw is all in, since I am on a TOU/Demand rate, I actually cost .07/kw to charge, hence $1.05. That does not equal the cost of a gallon here which is currently $3.45/gal. Cost per KWH is really a meaningless number.

 

Here in northwest Oregon we pay 11 cents per KWH, (that is all costs included / i.e. sur charges/taxes/ delivery fees etc.)
calculated by total bill, divided by KWH's.

When I was on the Volt forum some would calculate KWH"s prices by just the price stated for the KWH's on their bill which did not include all the other fees associated with the total bill.

Pacific Power is our electric supplier and the more electricity you use the higher the price per KWH. Just the opposite on
the way the rest of the world operates. Usually if you purchase more of an item you get a lower price.

 

Here in northwest Oregon we pay 11 cents per KWH, (that is all costs included / i.e. sur charges/taxes/ delivery fees etc.)
calculated by total bill, divided by KWH's.

When I was on the Volt forum some would calculate KWH"s prices by just the price stated for the KWH's on their bill which did not include all the other fees associated with the total bill.

Pacific Power is our electric supplier and the more electricity you use the higher the price per KWH. Just the opposite on
the way the rest of the world operates. Usually if you purchase more of an item you get a lower price.

Strictly speaking, your kwh cost is usually NOT just the total bill divided by the hours. Most places have a fixed meter fee. Evergy here in Missouri is like $14.70. You pay this regardless. Its not really something you can choose and it does not vary. Use zero kwh its still there.

For the most accurate kwh cost, subtract the fixed meter fee out. But yes, if there are other fees that are calculated based on the number of hours you use, then those need to remain in the calculation.

 

I'll check on our next bill and see if we are paying a fixed meter fee.

 

You are certain you are putting in 9.66 empty to full? It's more like 14 for previous versions, that's big difference.

 

Here in MA gas is $3.14/gal (filled up this morning) and electricity is $0.32/kWh (wher I live). Average cost of electricity in CA is $0.30/kWh and gas is $4.41/gal according to internet, you are somewhat lucky if you get $0.24/kWh

So for me in MA it would cost to drive Rav4 prime:
on electricity: 36 kWh/100mi = $11.52/100mi
on gas: 38mpg = 2.63 gallons / 100mi = $8.23/100mi (x1.4 times cheaper)

In CA using the "average" data it is x1.07 cheaper to run it on electricity. All because CA taxes gasoline so heavily. Even if I use the non-typical prices you quote then it is becomes 1.4x cheaper - nowhere close to 2x cheaper.

The mpg data is taken from fueleconomy.gov

 

am I reading this post right that you are only getting 100mi/36kWh = 2.7 miles/kwh? is that highway? I've only had my prime a couple of days but my average is currently at 3.2 miles/kwh and I've been just driving without too much thought to being really eco friendly.

 

Yes, I can measre the amount of charge going in. I have an isolated circuit for my charger and I have measuring equipment in my house.

 

So what kind of percentage drop do you see from what the display in the car claims and what you measure? I would think the loss might be pretty similar for most people.

 

does anyone know if charging the battery more slowly could be better for losses? I'm pretty sure it's better for the battery at least.

 

Charging at 240 volts has fewer losses than charging at 120 volts.

 

so damn! my electricity is more expensive than I thought. when you google rates it seems like you are only given the supply rates. the delivery rates for me take the number from about $0.22/kwh up to about $0.31/kwh. damn it!!!

 

Ah, you must live in Massachusetts! WE'RE NUMBER 2! (Hawaii still beats us.)

 

Wow! i'm an accountant and i'm used to do comparisons but you guys go beyond! I like it. .. Just to give a comparison here in Belgium. 0.55 € / kWh averaginging for the price of electricity. during the weekend / nights it drops to + - 0.40 € / kwh. + - 20 kWh for 100 km = 11 €. gasoline (E10) = 1,7 €. x 7 L/100 km = +- 12 €. So it's cheaper to run prime on electricity. Even if prices for gasoline would drop i would still drive it in EV.

 

I'm fortunate that my billing is simple relatively to you all. We have added charges to our electric bill, but they're all fixed or tiered by usage, and I would have to massively increase my consumption to reach the next tier. Therefore, to calculate my RAV4 Prime's charging cost, it's truly as simple as taking the kWh usage reported by my EVSE and multiply that by my rate (about 9-12¢/kWh depending on the season).