Does anyone know the chemistry of the main battery? NMC? LFP? All I can find online is that the cells are prismatic [emoji58]
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Prime Battery's chemistry?
jazhanel
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The traction battery is Li-Ion. And;
"The electrolyte used in the Li-ion battery module is an alkaline mixture of potassium and sodium hydroxide"
"The electrolyte used in the Li-ion battery module is an alkaline mixture of potassium and sodium hydroxide"
Not LFP because that would be 3.2V or 3.3V per cell. At 3.7V it could be NMC or another variant. I doubt NCA.
There is a comment about "alkaline mixture" but that sounds like a bad copy paste job from NiMH battery info used in the regular Hybrids.
BU-205: Types of Lithium-ion
Become familiar with the many different types of lithium-ion batteries: Lithium Cobalt Oxide, Lithium Manganese Oxide, Lithium Iron Phosphate and more.
batteryuniversity.com
Ok, I have zero faith Toyota docs are even accurate. The Camry Hybrid doc warns about liquid electrolyte spills (lol). "Any liquid electrolyte that leaks from a Li-ion battery cell quickly evaporates."
If a li-ion cell is punctured that cell will burst into flames very soon. The doc even says "The electrolyte used in the Li-ion battery cells is a flammable organic electrolyte."
Li-ion cells are well sealed and do not leak. See Prius hybrid battery:
If a li-ion cell is punctured that cell will burst into flames very soon. The doc even says "The electrolyte used in the Li-ion battery cells is a flammable organic electrolyte."
Li-ion cells are well sealed and do not leak. See Prius hybrid battery:
2022 Rav4 Prime SE, 2016 Leaf with upgraded 40kwh battery, 2014 Prius, 1965 F100 Inline 6
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I promise you, they are NOT LFP! That would be just stupid in a car that lives life in variable conditions, including freezing. Even with active battery temp management. A frozen LiFePo4 battery is a dead battery. Lithium can be frozen, as long as its charged, and it will survive.
Interesting. So basically 96 flashlight batteries in a box. I have 40 or 50 18650 and 26650 3.7v batteries sitting around the house. Hmm....wonder if I could wire them up to my Subaru Forester!Not LFP because that would be 3.2V or 3.3V per cell. At 3.7V it could be NMC or another variant. I doubt NCA.
There is a comment about "alkaline mixture" but that sounds like a bad copy paste job from NiMH battery info used in the regular Hybrids.
BU-205: Types of Lithium-ion
Become familiar with the many different types of lithium-ion batteries: Lithium Cobalt Oxide, Lithium Manganese Oxide, Lithium Iron Phosphate and more.
View attachment 188850
The prime cells are not cylindrical. They are prismatic. That much is published.
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Some Teslas come with LFP batteries (Do a quick search for tesla LFP and you'll see that on their site).
And there are drop in LFP replacements now for aircraft that have 1) met the requirements of what may be the most rigorous approval body on the planet (the FAA), and 2) must perform in climate extremes no car will ever see. (Excluding Musk’s orbital roadster).
Engineers have worked the thermal mgmt issues out.
The rules about taking larger lithium batteries are based on versions other than LFP. There's no real risk from carrying an LFP on a plane (in carryon or checked) and maybe someday FAA will allow "certified LFP" on planes, even in checked bags.
I am talking about LFP In the plane not cargo. Primary bus power system. Im a pilot.
I know - but the issue with the plane itself was the same as with cargo: a poorly handled lithium battery is a fire risk - but for LFP that risk is minimal (no more than with many other things approved by the FAA).
2022 Rav4 Prime SE, 2016 Leaf with upgraded 40kwh battery, 2014 Prius, 1965 F100 Inline 6
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LiFePO4 are super safe. Relatively cheap in terms of weight to cost to capacity. If you can absolutely guarantee they will not be frozen (through a thermal management system) then sure, they make sense. Suspect Tesla relied upon its thermal management system. As for aviation uses, not sure I am aware that is happening, but hey, I don't know everything either.
Here is the problem with most LiFePo4. Should you let the battery freeze at a high level of charge, it will simply stop producing power, but will not be ruined. If you let the battery freeze depleted (similar to many Lithium batteries) you will inexorably ruin it if you try to charge it while frozen. Thaw it out first, and there is hope.
A car is the worst candidate for LiFePO4 IMO. Yes, Tesla has active battery management. Till the car or its driver screws up and then it DOESN'T. You cannot have active battery management if the ICE is dead and/or the BEV battery depleted.
LiFePo4 are VERY interesting for fixed installations. Put them in a freeze proof space (think cellar, basement) and they outperform just about everything else, for the $/Ah. I've been playing with them, and reading about them since I have 8k of solar watts I could theoretically store and go off grid in a SHTF scenario. I would do it, but my basement is 300 ft from the array and it makes altering the setup a mess. But I've been reading about LiFePO4 a lot because of this.
Don't tell me everyone out there is messed up just cause Elon put some in one of his Tesla's.....
Here is the problem with most LiFePo4. Should you let the battery freeze at a high level of charge, it will simply stop producing power, but will not be ruined. If you let the battery freeze depleted (similar to many Lithium batteries) you will inexorably ruin it if you try to charge it while frozen. Thaw it out first, and there is hope.
A car is the worst candidate for LiFePO4 IMO. Yes, Tesla has active battery management. Till the car or its driver screws up and then it DOESN'T. You cannot have active battery management if the ICE is dead and/or the BEV battery depleted.
LiFePo4 are VERY interesting for fixed installations. Put them in a freeze proof space (think cellar, basement) and they outperform just about everything else, for the $/Ah. I've been playing with them, and reading about them since I have 8k of solar watts I could theoretically store and go off grid in a SHTF scenario. I would do it, but my basement is 300 ft from the array and it makes altering the setup a mess. But I've been reading about LiFePO4 a lot because of this.
Don't tell me everyone out there is messed up just cause Elon put some in one of his Tesla's.....
So when you plug in to charge a depleted battery BMS sees the battery is too cold and heats it up. Even the R4P does this.
Respectfully I think the hate on LiFE is FUD. ANY Li battery can fail from discharging too deeply for example. But engineers who designed billions of phones and millions of cars have worked out how to prevent it. You don’t NOT build things because of some potential out of specification scenario. You mitigate it with controls. Otherwise we wouldn’t have bridges (they collapse without weight restrictions). Or ICE engines (lubrication, cooling, over RPM can all ruin them if not controlled), etc. how is a battery different? You just warm it up first. It’s not a complex engineering problem.
TSLA is making major investments in LiFE. There are some really smart people over there. I trust they’ve worked it out.
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From here: Modern Panasonic prismatic battery cells - 🔋PushEVs
- Manufacturer: Panasonic
- Capacity: 51 Ah
- Nominal voltage: 3,7 V
- Energy: 188,7 Wh
- Form factor: PHEV2
- Chemistry: NCM 622
Thanks. I was pretty sure it was NCM, which others confirmed. In reality, NCM is safe in a well designed system (and this is a Toyota, so that's a given). From what I can tell, they have it set up to keep the battery well within the 20% to 80% use, so it should last a long time without much drop in capacity.
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The new Tesla's with LFP have ZERO weather related problems.........They are also in the BZ4 an Solterra.........No One is reporting cold weather problems......Paul
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