[DKFezzaguy]

A hub centric wheel is located by the center bore hole in the wheel, that fits precisely over a raised lip on the hub. The stock wheels are like this.

A lug centric wheel is located by tapered lug nuts that fit into countersunk lug nut holes.

Most aftermarket wheels are designed to fit a large cross section of vehicles, with different center bores. So they make the center bore of the wheel large to fit all the different applications, and they use tapered lug nuts and countersunk holes.

DKFezzaguy's point is that you can use a hub ring to make the bore sizes match.

My counterpoint is that the wheel studs aren't long enough to use an angled lug nut and a counter sunk hole, and when you do that, you get less thread engagement, and therefore it's not as strong. Probably a small risk, but it's not a risk I'm willing to take.

The only time I'll use a lug centric wheel is if it's a steel wheel. Because steel wheels are thinner there, you get plenty of thread engagement. You'll find virtually all steel wheels are lug centric design.

But aluminum wheels are thicker in that area, which takes away thread engagement on a car with short wheel studs. You need a shouldered lug nut that reaches down inside the wheel to grab the whole stud. Which is what the factory ones do.

If the wheel is designed right for the right hardware, there is no problem with the stud length. If there is, something is seriously wrong. I have NEVER encountered a too short stud. Case in point, my Toyota wheels need about 8 turns on the lug nuts. My MSW wheels with 60 degree cones need the same. I'm in Europe, so most wheels are TÚV approved for fitment. Most wheels are designed for 28 mm lug bolts, or the equivalent stud length. Basically an industry standard. It is usually only on cars that are somewhat unique or very large you see longer studs or bolts. A Ferrari for example use 52 mm long bolts as standard. Also I have never seen a wheel delivered without the appropriate hub rings if they were bought specifically for that car. If you go to Tire Rack for instance and plot in a Prime, if you buy ANY of the 310 17" wheels they offer for the Prime, they will provide you with the correct rings and lug nuts.

 

[manukabay]

If the wheel is designed right for the right hardware, there is no problem with the stud length. If there is, something is seriously wrong. I have NEVER encountered a too short stud. Case in point, my Toyota wheels need about 8 turns on the lug nuts. My MSW wheels with 60 degree cones need the same. I'm in Europe, so most wheels are TÚV approved for fitment. Most wheels are designed for 28 mm lug bolts, or the equivalent stud length. Basically an industry standard. It is usually only on cars that are somewhat unique or very large you see longer studs or bolts. A Ferrari for example use 52 mm long bolts as standard. Also I have never seen a wheel delivered without the appropriate hub rings if they were bought specifically for that car. If you go to Tire Rack for instance and plot in a Prime, if you buy ANY of the 310 17" wheels they offer for the Prime, they will provide you with the correct rings and lug nuts.

Factory shouldered lug nut on the left, aftermarket tapered lug nut on the right.

The factory shouldered design extends almost all the way though the wheel's hub face, thus engaging almost the entire wheel stud. It's a strong design.

The tapered aftermarket design engages less than half way through the wheel's hub face, and fails to engage the remainder of the wheel stud.

The only way you can get as much thread engagement with the aftermarket tapered design is if you make the wheel's hub face thinner. Which isn't really a good idea on an aluminum wheel, it's thicker than a steel wheel's hub face for a reason.

When putting the factory wheel stud back on after taking this picture, I counted a full 12 turns of thread engagement.

 

[DKFezzaguy]

View attachment 198452

Factory shouldered lug nut on the left, aftermarket tapered lug nut on the right.

The factory shouldered design extends almost all the way though the wheel's hub face, thus engaging almost the entire wheel stud. It's a strong design.

The tapered aftermarket design engages less than half way through the wheel's hub face, and fails to engage the remainder of the wheel stud.

The only way you can get as much thread engagement with the aftermarket tapered design is if you make the wheel's hub face thinner. Which isn't really a good idea on an aluminum wheel, it's thicker than a steel wheel's hub face for a reason.

When putting the factory wheel stud back on after taking this picture, I counted a full 12 turns of thread engagement.

Strength of thread engagement is not about it being as long as possible, it is about it being correct. Like I said, if the wheel is designed properly, there will be enough engagement. If you can get 7 or more turns on a 12x1.5 thread, there is nothing more you need. There is not only one design that works, there are several. Do you think Nissan, Mazda, VAG, Porsvce and Ford would use conical or ball shaped lugs or bolts if it was not safe? Also I’m in Europe. Unlike in the US, we can’t just bolt wheels on our cars randomly. Like in Japan there is some pretty stringent demands for wheel firms T. That means that an aftermarket wheel needs to live up to the exact same demands as an OE wheel. That means load carrying capacity, Lunt or bolt figment, and even specific torque settings specific to that combination. We can continue to discuss which designs are better, and the discuss the potential issues with nut vs bolts, two piece design vs one piece etc. But sorry to say it like this, it is nonsense to objectively say that the conical design is bad and unsafe. Without even seeing the wheel, how do you know that one woll engine less than the other? In this case you clearly did not read my last reply. Answer me this. How can the conical nut fitted to my aftermarket wheels only engage half as much if BOTH my conical nuts AND OE nuts engage with 8 turns? Answer. That is impossible. They engage the exact same. 8 turns is 8 turns. The mating surface for the nut/bolt in the wheel is designed to facilitate proper engagement, just like the OE design. You can’t just sit two lug nuts side by side and say, see this won’t work. You need a wheel to have a context.

 

[anav_ds]

The reason NOT to go with 235/65R17., is that the 225/65/17 having a bit more sidewall will have some additional flex, BUT its not as wide as the 235 and all I have read is that a slightly skinnier tire is better in snow/winter. However, no idea if that is actually true

 

[DKFezzaguy]

The reason NOT to go with 235/65R17., is that the 225/65/17 having a bit more sidewall will have some additional flex, BUT its not as wide as the 235 and all I have read is that a slightly skinnier tire is better in snow/winter. However, no idea if that is actually true

I would be very surprised if you could tell the difference. Winter tyres have gotten extremely good, and the RAV4 isn't exactly a lightweight. I have a rear wheel driven car that for winter has 305 section rears and 265 section fronts that I have driven in 15 cm of snow, and it is what, 300-400 kg lighter than the Prime. It was fun, but not scary or felt unsafe. If flex is what you want for comfort and perhaps some added rim protection depending on where you live and how the road conditions are, 235/65R17 will have more "flex" than the 225/65R17. This is because on only does the 235 section tyre have a taller sidewall, it also should run less pressure. The greater the volume in the tyre, the less pressure you run. So if you run 2.4 bar with the 225's, you'd run something like 2.3 in the 235. The 235 will be the more plush of the two.
Also remember that what the tread width actually is, depends on the brand and model of tyre. 225 or 235 section tyre does not mean that the tread is 225 or 235 cm wide, not even close. Tyre tread width can vary a lot. There are 225 tyres that has wider treads than 235 tyres out there. Whether it is 225 or 235, how well the tyre does, is down to the tyre itself more than anything. I know my 235/55R19 winters work great on my Prime.

 

[peakbagger]

I have both 17" winter snows and stock 18" summer tires. There is a big difference in grip. How much is due to the taller skinnier tire and how much is tread compound and tread design would be hard to separate, but I do know the stock tires are not great with real live snow on the ground. The stock tires pack up quick and spin while the taller winter tires do not. I think most folks actually do not drive in snow, they drive on plowed roads that are almost down to bare pavement with a layer or ice or slush.

 

[DKFezzaguy]

I have both 17" winter snows and stock 18" summer tires. There is a big difference in grip. How much is due to the taller skinnier tire and how much is tread compound and tread design would be hard to separate, but I do know the stock tires are not great with real live snow on the ground. The stock tires pack up quick and spin while the taller winter tires do not. I think most folks actually do not drive in snow, they drive on plowed roads that are almost down to bare pavement with a layer or ice or slush.

I have both 17" winter snows and stock 18" summer tires. There is a big difference in grip. How much is due to the taller skinnier tire and how much is tread compound and tread design would be hard to separate, but I do know the stock tires are not great with real live snow on the ground. The stock tires pack up quick and spin while the taller winter tires do not. I think most folks actually do not drive in snow, they drive on plowed roads that are almost down to bare pavement with a layer or ice or slush.

You can't compare the two. A dedicated summer tyre stops working at around 10 C. In snow and cold, any summer tyre would be absolutely worthless no matter the size. They may drive well on DRY paved roads, but even then they are a risk if a sudden stop or evasion is needed. Even a wide 255/45R20 winter tyre would absolutely demolish a 225/65R17 summer tyre in the cold, especially if there is water, ice or snow. On the flip side, if you go out and test the winter and summer tyres you have on a 25 C day, the summer tyres will outperform the winters. And if that is not the case, sorry, but then those summer tyres must be pretty awful.

 

[Salmon]

I run stock 18" alloy wheels normally and Acura* 17" alloy wheels in winter on on my 2021 R4P SE. There is 3/8" clearance between my Acura wheels and brake calipers. I have seen many posts from people who run 17" wheels on their R4P so I believe most with suitable offset, width, bolt pattern, and hub can work. But I also saw one post from someone who purchased 17" wheels that did not clear their calipers. So I doubt there is a simple, sure-fire way to know before purchasing.

*note: I don't recommend using wheels designed for a different brand of car (i.e. Acura). In my case it meant purchasing hub-centric rings, Honda lug nuts, and a new lug wrench. I only did so because the wheels cost me next to nothing so it was worth the hassle.

 

[3rdgeargrndrr]

There are many mixed messages on use of hub rings on aftermarket wheels, even discount tire states they are not required: (Discount Tire | Tires and Wheels for Sale | Online & In-Person)
but I am firmly in the camp of using them. And not plastic ones, pay a few pennies more and get aluminum rings.
( plastic rings can displace, get smashed in the centerbore and still give vibration issues)
By far and away, the most affordable wheels with correct centerbore will be OEM Toyota/Lexus wheels.
if you order from tirerack, make sure you specifically request the rings, not sure if they ship automatically.

 

[Salmon]

I agree regarding the metal hub rings. They are cheap enough that I wouldn't bother with the plastic ones.

 

[Templeton]

I agree regarding the metal hub rings. They are cheap enough that I wouldn't bother with the plastic ones.

It is interesting, l have heard recommendations to get plastic rings because aluminum ones can "weld" to the hub from corrosion and make removal of the wheel very difficult on the side of the road

 

[DKFezzaguy]

It is interesting, l have heard recommendations to get plastic rings because aluminum ones can "weld" to the hub from corrosion and make removal of the wheel very difficult on the side of the road

Very true.
It's the clamping force holds the wheel on, not the rings. Many wheel manufactures recommend plastic if rings are needed. Some manufacture their own rings, like BBS, but most prefer the plastic rings.

 

[wishk]

It is interesting, l have heard recommendations to get plastic rings because aluminum ones can "weld" to the hub from corrosion and make removal of the wheel very difficult on the side of the road

Never had trouble with wheel removal as there is lots of leverage there but I've certainly had trouble removing aluminum rings themselves. Had to cut them open by smashing them with a screwdriver and hammer to put the summer wheels back on. They were very thin rings, barely 1mm. They could certainly be trouble if trying to fit a spare which does not need them.

 

[anav_ds]

As an aside, what about using a larger wheel. My 2023 SE came with 18 inch wheels and using 17inch with winter rims as my second seasonal set. What about going to 19inch rims for non-winter. Is there a difference in the design between the SE and higher trim or does it just mean the car basically sits higher ( with the heavy battery Im sure the car is not any less stable being higher up)?

 

[DKFezzaguy]

As an aside, what about using a larger wheel. My 2023 SE came with 18 inch wheels and using 17inch with winter rims as my second seasonal set. What about going to 19inch rims for non-winter. Is there a difference in the design between the SE and higher trim or does it just mean the car basically sits higher ( with the heavy battery Im sure the car is not any less stable being higher up)?

The car will not sit higher. When you install 19's the tyre profile gets lower. Maybe it sits about 4 mm or so higher as the OE size is 235/55R19. All RAV4's fit the 19's,