Any chance cooler winter temps might be a consideration?

We are only at 22 k miles. But even the current mild winter temps on Long Island, NY lowers range and charge for us.

 

LI NY too. I noticed last winter the guessometer shows less EV miles in cooler weather but it bounced right back when the temperatures warm up.

 

You probably are seeing some degredation. The curve is not linear, by the way. It drops far more in the first couple years and then flattens slowly. The colder weather should not really decrease capacity, in my experience. Unless Toyota actually designed something into the reserve capacity that changes depending on weather....

 

In my opinion, the figures you quoted are all within normal ranges.

Keep in mind that there are no published figures on exactly how much energy we should see going into the battery per charge; those of us sleuths have done our best to deduce this, but almost every single "empty to full" change I observe is different from the others.

Here's some data from my EVSE's dashboard. The best I can tell, these figures are all "empty to full" charge sessions (expressed in kWh) for roughly the past three months in reverse chronological order. Beyond that, I can't confidently remember if they're full charges or not.

• 14.3
• 13.9
• 14.9
• 13.9
• 13.1
• 13.8
• 14.1
• 14.2
• 14.1
• 13.9
• 13.3

This car is NOTORIOUS for giving us ambiguous data, confusing information and then behaving borderline unpredictably. I've surmised after a fair bit of driving that the mythical "HV low end" is not itself a hard threshold as I've seen the needle dip beyond that blue/green line without the engine running. The car just does whatever it wants to do, and that may affect how much energy the battery accepts given any charge cycle.

I think the battery pack will degrade faster than people think

Well, that depends on how quickly you expect it to degrade. I'm expecting about a 20% reduction in capacity over the first decade of use (roughly calculated by how much I drive and my relatively temperate climate).

 

In my opinion, the figures you quoted are all within normal ranges.

Keep in mind that there are no published figures on exactly how much energy we should see going into the battery per charge; those of us sleuths have done our best to deduce this, but almost every single "empty to full" change I observe is different from the others.

Here's some data from my EVSE's dashboard. The best I can tell, these figures are all "empty to full" charge sessions (expressed in kWh) for roughly the past three months in reverse chronological order. Beyond that, I can't confidently remember if they're full charges or not.

• 14.3
• 13.9
• 14.9
• 13.9
• 13.1
• 13.8
• 14.1
• 14.2
• 14.1
• 13.9
• 13.3

This car is NOTORIOUS for giving us ambiguous data, confusing information and then behaving borderline unpredictably. I've surmised after a fair bit of driving that the mythical "HV low end" is not itself a hard threshold as I've seen the needle dip beyond that blue/green line without the engine running. The car just does whatever it wants to do, and that may affect how much energy the battery accepts given any charge cycle.


Well, that depends on how quickly you expect it to degrade. I'm expecting about a 20% reduction in capacity over the first decade of use (roughly calculated by how much I drive and my relatively temperate climate).

The deviation on some of those are huge. What EVSE are you using? Are you sure that's from 0% to 100%? I used to consistently see 14+ kwh, but I haven't seen that sort of charge in a year. Every full charge I get is around 13.5 kwh now.

 

I rarely see 14 kw for a full charge from — miles EV remaining.

usually 13.6-13.7.

keep in mind that zero EV miles remaining is different than “—“ EV miles remaining. This-or anything else can cause slight differences in kilowatts needed to fully charge.

 

Just wondering, what do you get your charge #'s from? My numbers are from the Chargepoint stations I charge at.

 

It's winter time. All PHEVs ad BEVs have less range at this time of the year.

 

Im keeping track as best I can just for fun...I can't measure at my L2 charger because I dont have a meter for that, but I I have all sorts of metering for my home charging...Mine is relatively new (Sept '22) and I use a basic Kill-A-Watt EZ on an external house plug 110v. From "empty" to 100% has been pretty consistent at 14.4-14.7KWh drawn. Interesting thing I learned from my "Sense" house meter (which measures all draws of electricity at my house (and solar panel production as well...its cool) and identifies them according to unique signature sine wave, is that the draw of my standard 3.3KW charger is all over the place during the course of the evening charge. Meaning it starts at say 1350w then an hour later maybe goes down to 700w then an hour later after that it goes up to 1500w then...etc. There are even times it has recorded no charge draw at all for 15mins or so at various intervals...It turns on/off constantly it appears, and draws at different amounts at different times. I have even seen this at the Kill-A-Watt meter level. I have no idea what its doing...but in the end, it always works out to about 11.5 hours at the end fully charged 100%...I write down the stats and shrug my shoulders...over my head I guess.
I observed another few things about how much electricity is drawn doing various types of driving, but just anecdotal, nothing scientific. Like driving 10 miles up a steep mountain pass at avg 50-MPH uses almost the entire traction battery! At bottom of hill I was at about 92% capacity and as I drove up the mountain on HWY 154 here in Ca. I could visibly see the needle going down! (It reminded me of my gas gauge on an old muscle car I used to own 🤣 ) At the top of the 10-mile drive up, the EV=7miles ...I coasted down the same mountain pass and picked up about 3 miles or 1KWh on the way down. On average I am getting about 3-miles per kWh. Over 40MPH about 2/KWh, Uphill over 40MPH about 1/KWh...In my neighborhood at less than 30-MPH I think we are looking at 4/KWh...

 

Nice. Keep at it. It would be interesting to see how much charge degradation you see over the years. I haven't used a watt meter on the 120V charger since I just got it. But, I'll start measuring once I figure out how to "record" a charging session with it.

The most I've ever charged the car via Chargepoint was around 14.5 kwh's. I've seen that several times when I first got the car, and I thought it was a fluke or maybe inefficient charging since I've read that about 14.1 kwh of the battery is actually used for EV mode. But, then I found out there is some loss in electrical transmission from the EVSE to the battery. So, the 3% loss due to resistance / inefficiency makes sense.

Also, I have seen some Chargepoint sessions with graphs that looks just like that pic you posted. Most of the time, though, charging curve is really flat until the last half kwh. Then it starts to ramp down.

 

Hi folks, anyone else keep track of the kwh's for a full charge? I have a 2+ year old Prime with the upgraded charger. It has close to 44k miles on it now. I have had charging scenarios where the battery was depleted to HV mode, and I was getting over 14 kwh's for a full charge even up to a year ago. Nowadays, when I do a full charge from 0% battery and car running in HV mode, I get just under 13.6 kwh's. I just did a charge again today to corroborate, and from dead 0% to full charge it took about 13.57 kwh's as reported by Chargepoint. The next test will be to do this on 120V and my watt meter. But, is anyone else noticing some capacity degradation? I've heard that on the Prius Prime's, battery capacity degrades about 2% per year. Which, makes sense for me: 14 kwh * (1 - 0.04) = 13.44 kwh. Which is close to what I'm getting now, albeit, I'm using 14 kwh's as the battery capacity size -- which I feel under estimates the battery size.

I think the battery pack will degrade faster than people think (especially us that have paddle shifters). Regenning the battery pack going down big mountains charges quite fast. I believe it can be faster than 14 kw. I think this plays in role with quicker battery degradation, but who knows. Curious to hear what other long term Prime drivers are experiencing.

For 44k miles, though, the amount of battery degradation is pretty good, even though that's not close to the amount of EV miles we've driven. Would be nice for Toyota to have a rough estimate of that on the dash board.

Hi folks, anyone else keep track of the kwh's for a full charge? I have a 2+ year old Prime with the upgraded charger. It has close to 44k miles on it now. I have had charging scenarios where the battery was depleted to HV mode, and I was getting over 14 kwh's for a full charge even up to a year ago. Nowadays, when I do a full charge from 0% battery and car running in HV mode, I get just under 13.6 kwh's. I just did a charge again today to corroborate, and from dead 0% to full charge it took about 13.57 kwh's as reported by Chargepoint. The next test will be to do this on 120V and my watt meter. But, is anyone else noticing some capacity degradation? I've heard that on the Prius Prime's, battery capacity degrades about 2% per year. Which, makes sense for me: 14 kwh * (1 - 0.04) = 13.44 kwh. Which is close to what I'm getting now, albeit, I'm using 14 kwh's as the battery capacity size -- which I feel under estimates the battery size.

I think the battery pack will degrade faster than people think (especially us that have paddle shifters). Regenning the battery pack going down big mountains charges quite fast. I believe it can be faster than 14 kw. I think this plays in role with quicker battery degradation, but who knows. Curious to hear what other long term Prime drivers are experiencing.

For 44k miles, though, the amount of battery degradation is pretty good, even though that's not close to the amount of EV miles we've driven. Would be nice for Toyota to have a rough estimate of that on the dash board.

I purchased my SE in July of 21 which now has almost 50k miles on it. I had a juicebox charger installed this past October. All of my chargers from 0 EV miles have ranged from 13.1 to 13.6 kWh. I also assumed this was probably due to battery degradation. I was not able to measure this before since I was using the supplied level 1 charger. I thought people were stating that you should get 14.5 kWh. I don’t know why I have a range of 13.1 to 13.6 unless difference due to some gain of battery from HV mode even though still shows 0 EV miles.

 

Damn, that's a lot of miles for 1.5 years of ownership. Do you commute a lot for work? How much do you think you have driven in EV mode?

I just did another full charge today at a Chargepoint, and yeah, still getting around 13.6 kWh. Battery has degraded significantly, it seems.

 

Here is a year of R4P charging logged by my Chargepoint EVSE. This is over about 20k miles. Chargepoint grain is daily, so I threw out partial charge sessions (<13KWh), duplicate charge sessions (>15KWh), plotted as a 3 observation moving average and fit a regression model to it (dashed line). r^2 for the regression model is 0.15, which in English means that 15% of the variation in charge is accounted for by time in the correlation, and it is statistically significant (p<.001 for the geeks).

The data does show evidence of subtle degradation (on the magnitude of .1 - .3 KWh)

[TLDR version: I did what I could to knock out noise and smooth the data]

Here's another cut. I sliced the data into 4 quarters (roughly since this is a rolling 365) and plotted 95% confidence intervals on the 3MA data points. I left the timeline alone so you can see the line chart shards' respective positions. The average (dark grey line) and 95% CI's (bands) are lower today than they were a year ago.

The analysis is not perfect, but I'm pretty confident that my R4P unit is taking slightly less energy than it was a year ago. Within the realm of 0.2 KWh, which is about a 1.5% degradation on 14KWh full charge, on a chassis which has depleted about 6.7% (20k of 300k life). That's not unexpected- I'm satisfied.

 

Here is a year of R4P charging logged by my Chargepoint EVSE. This is over about 20k miles. Chargepoint grain is daily, so I threw out partial charge sessions (<13KWh), duplicate charge sessions (>15KWh), plotted as a 3 observation moving average and fit a regression model to it (dashed line). r^2 for the regression model is 0.15, which in English means that 15% of the variation in charge is accounted for by time in the correlation, and it is statistically significant (p<.001 for the geeks).

The data does show evidence of subtle degradation (on the magnitude of .1 - .3 KWh)

[TLDR version: I did what I could to knock out noise and smooth the data]

View attachment 191207
Here's another cut. I sliced the data into 4 quarters (roughly since this is a rolling 365) and plotted 95% confidence intervals on the 3MA data points. I left the timeline alone so you can see the line chart shards' respective positions. The average (dark grey line) and 95% CI's (bands) are lower today than they were a year ago.

View attachment 191208

The analysis is not perfect, but I'm pretty confident that my R4P unit is taking slightly less energy than it was a year ago. Within the realm of 0.2 KWh, which is about a 1.5% degradation on 14KWh full charge, on a chassis which has depleted about 6.7% (20k of 300k life). That's not unexpected- I'm satisfied.

Very nice. The linear regression fit definitely shows degradation. Hopefully the degradation isn't linear but levels off asymptotically. You should keep posting annual charging session data / curves. I've read that the Prius Primes degrade on average about 2% per year -- I'm not sure if this is an arithmetic average or compounded. But, it could be plausible that it's compounded, which would put it at 20% degradation in 10 years. This is still above Toyota's warranty coverage for the traction battery: 70% of battery capacity at 8 years or 100k miles. But, to put this into perspective, a 20% loss in capacity translates to over 10 EV miles at 3 mi / kWh. That's a big loss in EV range.

 

The number of charge cycles likely has the biggest impact on degradation. So, for those that drive in EV as much as possible, with a full charge or more every day, that will lead to high degradation. For a full EV there may be 250 mile range, which could be 1 full charge cycle per week. For a Prime, some people may be doing a full charge cycle (or more) per day. My guess is the Prime battery will degrade much faster in that case than that in a full EV. Toyota's warranty is not clear if the Prime gets the 8 year /100,000 mile / 70% warranty. For someone doing 90% of their miles on their Prime in EV mode, that would be around 2,000 full charge cycles! For a full EV, that would be on the order of 500 full charge cycles.

 

Battery degradation is based largely on the number of charge cycles that have taken place. Driving 100 miles and then recharging is going to put less stress on the battery as with someone driving 50 miles and then plugging in the car. How much is anyone's guess. Sub zero weather is another factor that can shorten battery life over time but how much is "anyone's guess".

I would not expect the SOC from various charge stations to be 100% accurate as charging is stopped before 100% SOC to protect the battery. I would expect to get maximum charging with a slower low input charger that is used indoors than for an external high output charger.

 

I would not expect the SOC from various charge stations to be 100% accurate as charging is stopped before 100% SOC to protect the battery. I would expect to get maximum charging with a slower low input charger that is used indoors than for an external high output charger.

The “charge station” is called an EVSE, and is basically a very smart, glorified extension cord. The charger is onboard the vehicle. Max charge has nothing to do with input current, the software in the car modulates the current, and “full” is exactly the same every time. (Just over 90% per the OBD port which I monitor). Im assuming you’re referring to the data I shared- this is not various chargers, it is exclusively my personal charger at my home.

The input energy does vary due to battery conditioning and climate pre conditioning, and this probably explains the periodicity that can be observed in the data. However across hundreds of samples there is a clear trendline.

Of course someone that uses the vehicle more in HV would experience less degradation (but remember HV is constantly cycling the battery too..) My data represents about 30 miles EV average per day, fully depleted 3-4 days a week and some EV other days. I think it’s above average use (after all I clocked 20k in a year thats more than most people). So im going to see more degradation than many over time just due to mileage.

 

Not sure that any of this is valid. The amount of energy needed to fully charge the batteries will vary significantly with many factors, including the temperature of the batteries at the time of charging (to you start charging right after a hard drive emptied them or after the car has been sitting, for example). To measure degradation you need the capacity based on power out (miles under the same conditions) not power in.

 

Agree that charge acceptance is not the best measure but Toyota doesn’t give us a lot of data to work with. Its well understood in Li battery chemistry that aged cells will reach the float voltage faster as they age, and RC hobby folks (I’m one) have chargers that can measure charge / discharge of our batteries down to the milliamp and it’s really obvious as a battery ages that energy input goes down over time. Same battery chemistry. Exacerbated by higher internal resistance which is energy lost as heat on both charge and discharge. So while the data is not perfect, I do believe it’s a good proxy for battery health.

The best non-tech description of battery aging that I’ve ever read is to think of it as a rubber band. As that band ages, it stretches easier (less energy stored), but it also contracts with less force (less energy delivered).

Different conditions of charge are in play for sure, but over lots of observations those effects statistically wash out. My data is only a couple hundred observations, but there have been some large scale studies over hundreds/thousands of cars and millions of miles (the Tesla folks have an open source project, for example) that show the same trend line.

 

Ok, just to update this thread, I've charged a buncha times this past year from -- EV miles (engine is running) to full overnight on 120V level 1 charging. I have a non-OEM EVSE plugged into my watt meter. And, now, I'm consistently getting 14.5+ kwh's on a full charge. So, 🤷‍♂️ ... I haven't had much oppty's to run the traction battery dry, since fortunately, I have free charging at work -- gotta use that free electricity. But, now that we're on summer break, I've been charging it from dead empty a bunch of times on 120V, and my watt meter is showing 14.5 kwh's pretty consistently. The odd thing though is at the level 2 Chargepoint stations at work and anywhere else I can charge for free, I'm still getting around 13.6 kwh on a full charge.

 

120 volt charging is slightly less efficient than 240 volt charging, primarily because of the length of time it takes to charge. There is a fan under the back seat that runs while the car is charging. Running that fan for 12 hours rather than 2 hours makes some difference. There are other losses that also are affected by the longer charging times.

 

I usually see between 9 and 14.5 for a full charge.

Also, Monday through Friday I charge twice a day. After finding a shorter route (but takes longer due to traffic), my drive to work is 26 miles and I average 2.5 miles/kWh. My drive home is about 36 miles and I also average about 2.5 miles/kWh. Lots of uphills on the drive to work and 95% freeway speeds (cruise set at 75mph) on the drive home.

So when I charge at work I usually draw between 9 and 11 kWh and at home is almost always between 14 and 14.5.

I wonder how soon I'll experience battery degradation with my charging routine.

 

To update this thread, car is now over 3 years old, and 60k miles. A complete charge up on level 2 uses about 13.15 kWh's of electricity and takes 2hrs and 15 minutes to charge. Earlier this year, the max according to ChargePoint was 13.5 kWh's. When the car was new, it took 14.5 kWh's of electricity, and 2.5 hours to charge. Degradation still happening, but seems to be slowing down a bit. I estimate the battery has about 92.5% of the original capacity still left. Still pretty good.

I really wonder, though, how much of the 60k miles are EV miles. But, I feel like it's over half. Still not bad.

 

I posted in a couple of other threads but at 15,500 miles I've lost at least 1kWh of usable capacity.

My previous charging sessions that would sometimes report between 14.5 and 14.9khW are now down to a max of 13.5, most of them being closer to 13kWh. Driving a single trip starting with a full charge with the car reporting 3 miles/kWh will now result in an actual EV range of about 38 miles instead of the 42 when the car was new.

Very disappointing for a car that isn't even a year old yet. Hopefully the degradation will slow down.

 

Do you think the cold is bad for battery degradation? I think generally operating at high temps are worse for battery degradation than low temps. For every 5 C increase in temperature ambient (20C) battery longevity decreases by 2 -2.5 years.
View attachment 202141

source: https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/66708.pdf

And the C rate can also be rate of discharge, not just the rate of charging.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's a good point, and something I forgot about. Even the rate of charging from regeneration can be much faster than 1C.

 

To add another data point, the last empty to full charge that was done on the car was 14.1201kWh on the chargepoint app (full current over almost 2 hrs) and 32% to 100% with 9.384kWh on the Toyota app. It was 45-50F during the charging session.

 

How many of you are using the Departure time program and if it is helping with degradation?
I used to use a device similar to the killawatt but stopped using it last year.

 

I'd say most of my miles driven have been EV miles. My daily round trip commute is between 70 and 80 miles depending on the route I take. I charge twice a day and have tried to drive in EV mode as much as possible since it's cheaper than gas would be.

But if I'm going to end up ruining my battery, I will have to reconsider. But it's disappointing that Toyota markets this as a car you can drive mostly in EV and then gives you a battery that will degrade a lot if you actually use it mostly as an EV.

And I'm in SoCal. Temperature rarely gets any colder than the 40s and I keep my car in a garage that's almost never colder than the upper 60s. In the summer the outdoor temps are between 65 and 85 and in the winter it's usually in the 60s during the day and maybe in the 50s some nights and mornings, and occasionally in the 40s at night and early morning.
[/QUOT

How many of you are using the Departure time program and if it is helping with degradation?
I used to use a device similar to the killawatt but stopped using it last year.

I don't do departure time charge scheduling. But, I would say at least 70% of the time, my car doesn't sit around fully charged; i.e., 90% SOC max. Maybe that's why my car has better degradation? I usually charge at work or whenever I'm out and about and using free chargers. By the time I get back to home, my car is sitting around 40 to 50% SOC max all night and all weekend. I never charge at home because it's just not worth it.

Hopefully, SDGTR can chime in on this one. His/her car seems to have much worse degradation than mine. Maybe they leave the car fully charged at home often. But, now that you've mentioned this, I think I'm going to start being more conscious of leaving my car fully charged and sitting around for a long time.

 

I don't do departure time charge scheduling. But, I would say at least 70% of the time, my car doesn't sit around fully charged; i.e., 90% SOC max. Maybe that's why my car has better degradation? I usually charge at work or whenever I'm out and about and using free chargers. By the time I get back to home, my car is sitting around 40 to 50% SOC max all night and all weekend. I never charge at home because it's just not worth it.

Hopefully, SDGTR can chime in on this one. His/her car seems to have much worse degradation than mine. Maybe they leave the car fully charged at home often. But, now that you've mentioned this, I think I'm going to start being more conscious of leaving my car fully charged and sitting around for a long time.

I hardly ever leave my battery fully charged just sitting around. My drive to work depending on my route either uses the full charge or on the shorter (but slower) route leaves me with 8 to 10 miles of estimated range. My drive home uses the full charge.

Because of the degradation I've experienced I'm no longer charging twice a day. Right now charging at work is cheaper than at home so I only charge at work and am now doing about 40% of my driving in EV mode, the rest in HV. Hopefully this slows down the degradation but from other reports on this and other threads, it seems like others are experiencing similar degradation.

Also keep in mind that a "fully charged" battery will only be at 90% of the battery's actual capacity. There is an approximately 23% buffer that is not available to the driver. On the low end it keeps a certain buffer so that even when the battery is "empty", there is still enough charge for HV operations and to prevent over-discharge. On the upper end is a 10% buffer to prevent the battery from sitting around fully charged. My current degradation seems to be unchanged from a few months ago. I'm using between 13 and 13.4 kWh for a full charge. When the car was new 14.5 kWh was normal.

 

Good thread. I was going to ask if the 14.x kw battery is under warranty. Then I did a quick google search and found this excerpt from Motor Trend. Seems like a good peace of mind IMHO.

Toyota Hybrid and Electric Vehicle Warranty Coverage
Toyota's hybrid and electric models have their own warranty stipulations. On pre-2020 models, the battery is covered for eight years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. On models built for 2020 or after, the battery has 10 years or 150,000 miles of coverage. The battery may be eligible for warranty replacement if it is found to have less than 70 percent of its original charge capacity within the warranty period.
Other electric powertrain components, such as motors, control modules, inverters, and cooling parts, are covered for eight years or 100,000 miles. Vehicle components outside of the electric powertrain get the same three year or 36,000-mile warranty as in gas-powered Toyota models.

 

That is wrong, and misguided. From the actual warranty in the 2023 Rav4 Prime manual:

Gradual Capacity Reduction
of Traction Battery
(Lithium-ion Battery)
Lithium-ion battery capacity (the ability to
hold a charge) gradually reduces with time
and use. This is a natural characteristic of
lithium-ion batteries. The extent at which
capacity is reduced changes drastically
depending on the environment (ambient
temperature, etc.) and usage conditions such
as how the vehicle is driven and how the
lithium-ion battery is charged. Reduction of
lithium-ion battery capacity is NOT covered
under warranty. In order to lessen the
possibility of capacity reduction, follow the
directions listed in the Owner’s Manual under
“Capacity Reduction of the Hybrid Battery
(Traction Battery)"

 

I agree. I had it wrong before because of that too. But, when I contacted Toyota to verify, I was told that they do not cover battery capacity degradation due to normal wear and tear -- whatever that means.

It means that when there is enough miles on the fleet to see if this is [likely] real, Toyota will step up with the same grace and foot dragging that they are doing with the HV cable corrosion issue. A significant amount of hell raising <might> get some attention. It appears nobody has a claim yet. Give it a few more years.

All batteries degrade over time and eventually hold less and less of a charge. I just had the battery replaced in my iPhone for this very reason. Your car is just on a larger scale. My phone was only holding 80% of a charge which is the point that Apple recommends replacement.

Apple doesn't advertise a 10 year warranty on the batteries @70% or better. Toyota does. At least on one part of their website. If you manage to hit 80% on your Apple battery during the warranty period (or under AppleCare), it's not a hassle. If Toyota even has an objective measure on battery degradation it's a very well-kept secret. Lack of transparency here serves their interest, not the owners.

 

Apple doesn't advertise a 10 year warranty on the batteries @70% or better. Toyota does. At least on one part of their website. If you manage to hit 80% on your Apple battery during the warranty period (or under AppleCare), it's not a hassle. If Toyota even has an objective measure on battery degradation it's a very well-kept secret. Lack of transparency here serves their interest, not the owners.

Not sure where Toyota is lacking transparency. You even posted that they advertise a 10 year warranty @ 70% or better. I'm sure if your within the 10 year and under 70% they will replace it. Just because your battery is degrading doesn't mean that it is abnormal. And Apple Care is more than double the price of a battery replacement in a year.

 

try this: Toyota Battery Warranty Note that the 70% capacity seems to fall under the 8year/100K hybrid warranty

 

try this: Toyota Battery Warranty Note that the 70% capacity seems to fall under the 8year/100K hybrid warranty

Thanks. Toyota definitely makes this very confusing. There's what you posted but in the actual warranty manual I just found there's what @mililani posted.

https://www.toyota.com/content/dam/toyota/brochures/pdf/2023/T-MMS-23RAV4Prime.pdf

Page 16.

Gradual Capacity Reduction of Traction Battery (Lithium-ion Battery) Lithium-ion battery capacity (the ability to hold a charge) gradually reduces with time and use. This is a natural characteristic of lithium-ion batteries. The extent at which capacity is reduced changes drastically depending on the environment (ambient temperature, etc.) and usage conditions such as how the vehicle is driven and how the lithium-ion battery is charged. Reduction of lithium-ion battery capacity is NOT covered under warranty. In order to lessen the possibility of capacity reduction, follow the directions listed in the Owner’s Manual under “Capacity Reduction of the Hybrid Battery (Traction Battery).”


And then from the full owner's manual - https://assets.sia.toyota.com/publications/en/om-s/OM42E79U/pdf/OM42E79U.pdf

Page 86 -

The hybrid battery (traction battery) capacity (the ability to hold a charge) reduces with time and use in the same way as other rechargeable batteries. The extent at which capacity reduces changes drastically depending on the environment (ambient temperature, etc.) and usage conditions, such as how the vehicle is driven and how the hybrid battery (traction battery) is charged. This is a natural characteristic of lithium-ion batteries, and is not a malfunction. Also, even though the EV driving range becomes shorter when the hybrid battery (traction battery) capacity reduces, vehicle performance does not significantly become worse. In order to reduce the possibility of the capacity reducing, follow the directions listed on P.119, “Capacity reduction of the hybrid battery (traction battery)”.


After looking at all this, I'm completely confused about what, if any, warranty the battery has for degradation.

 

I wish i knew what the degradation is based on, full battery or what is available for us to use. My other car is a Tesla MY, it's over 3 years old and has approximately 10.8% degradation based on TeslaFi info. I experienced the greatest degradation the first year, about 8%. As for a reference the cars has just under 45,000 miles. An item to note, i've had over 66 software updates during this time, and they do affect the degradation that gets reported for some reason. Maybe it's the reboot of the entire system I don't know.
Anyway, I gave up trying to stress over the degradation other than to track how bad, or good it was. TeslaFi lets you track others who have roughly the same age and mileage as you, and I'm in the bottom 25%.
As I've said on a roughly 75kWh battery 11%~ isn't bad over this amount of time. EV miles started at 324 and now are roughly 289 rated. ( you'll never get such good numbers as you tend to be a little right foot happy on that style car)
Just enjoy your car and only worry if you get the dreaded HV system error message.

 

I wish i knew what the degradation is based on, full battery or what is available for us to use. My other car is a Tesla MY, it's over 3 years old and has approximately 10.8% degradation based on TeslaFi info. I experienced the greatest degradation the first year, about 8%. As for a reference the cars has just under 45,000 miles. An item to note, i've had over 66 software updates during this time, and they do affect the degradation that gets reported for some reason. Maybe it's the reboot of the entire system I don't know.
Anyway, I gave up trying to stress over the degradation other than to track how bad, or good it was. TeslaFi lets you track others who have roughly the same age and mileage as you, and I'm in the bottom 25%.
As I've said on a roughly 75kWh battery 11%~ isn't bad over this amount of time. EV miles started at 324 and now are roughly 289 rated. ( you'll never get such good numbers as you tend to be a little right foot happy on that style car)
Just enjoy your car and only worry if you get the dreaded HV system error message.

Yeah, the thing is that it's much more noticeable when you only have an EV range of 42 miles to start with. I never got that much anyway but I did have a full 14kWh available. Now I'm down to 13kWh which is about 4 or 5 miles less than what I was getting before. When my daily drive is 35 to 40 miles each way, that is very noticeable and where I was previously able to complete the drive 100% on battery, now I'm not making it all the way.

I was reading through the Toyota manual and one of the things it mentions as a way to reduce degradation is to not drive the car close to its top EV speed (84mph per Toyota). Quite a bit of my driving over the 18K miles I've put on it has been freeway at 75mph so I'm wondering if that combined with doing two full charges every day has led to the degradation I'm seeing. Although as evidenced by this thread, other people are also noticing degradation with theirs.

I'm eagerly awaiting the day solid state batteries finally make it to market. A PHEV with a 100 mile EV range would be perfect.

 

I view this a bit different and look at miles traveled. We have a 2021 Prime with 30,000 miles and I would drive my car back and forth to work which is a round trip of 22 miles. Downhill there and uphill coming back. The prime would charge to 43 to 47 miles each day and not sure why the difference. I charge with my tesla charger and an adapter to fit the Rav 4. Last year I could make the 22 mile round trip and usually have 19-21 miles left which was not quite enough for a second round trip but close. Today driving there and back I only had 9 miles left so in my my mind my battery has definitely significantly degrading over the past 9 months or so. Has anyone seen a % of degradation that Toyota stands behind?

Trev

 

Since their warranty only kicks in if THEY determine that the battery has lost at least 30% of its capacity, it's going to be very hard for anyone to get Toyota to actually replace a battery under warranty. They are also not clear on how exactly they measure this capacity. Is it based on the battery's full 18kWh capacity? The 14kWh that are usable to the driver? Some other measurement that only they can see?

As I mentioned before, I've lost about 1.5kWh of usable capacity since I bought the car. Toyota has been entirely unconcerned and not the least bit curious about it.

I think Toyota's battery management systems are vastly overrated. Their EV batteries seem to degrade just as much as everyone else's.

 

Having been involved with large industrial battery packs including an early Megapack, the batteries have an inherent degradation. What changes is how the warranty is worded. If a client wanted a guaranteed end of life capacity, the rated capacity of the battery when new would be lower as the degration would be factored into the rated capacity. Many incentives are based on initial installed capacity and therefore the owner wants a big number up front to get big check and degradation is not as important in the long term proforma economics. In a fixed array, Tesla had another option where they installed an extra empty cabinet and would install additional batteries to meet the degradation guarantee. They could return a battery to "new" rating by addition cells.

Contrary to popular belief, lithium chemistry cells can be "tuned" a bit to put out more or less power by tweaking the BMS settings. There are lot of "seconds" and used batteries coming out of china that folks are using to build battery packs and in more than a few cases some firms are overrating the cells. They just crank up the settings to get a bit more output but the trade off is battery life. There are two "clocks" ticking on battery life. There is chemical breakdown clock that starts ticking the day that it is built that does not stop although it can be slowed down by storage temperature and a "shot clock" that starts and stops when the battery is actively charging and discharging, this clock rate also varies with rate of charge and discharge. Tesla did an internal study that claims that using DC supercharger compared to slow AC charger does not impact battery life, but I think its fair to question the integrity of the source as a major incentive to buy a Tesla is DC supercharging as way around their overstated range estimates.