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T-Dogg

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I'm hoping this is more common than my unsuccessful searches here would suggest. My '96 manual's brake-light switch (which of course is activated when the brake pedal is pushed more than just a bit) has begun to pick up hitchhikers. For a week or so it has been a warning tone (either lights-left-on or key-left-in-ignition) when the brake pedal is pushed with the engine off. Then today that was joined by the right turn signal (front and rear as well as the dash light) whether the vehicle is running or not. When underway, the right turn signal operates normally unless I apply the brakes; then it just stays on until I release the brakes, when it resumes operating normally. Help. Thanks.

John in Pittsburgh
 
John, pull your brake light bulbs and make sure the solder pads on the bases haven't melted together like in this photo. A short between brake lights/tail lights or turn signals can cause weird problems. I assume you don't have any wiring harness installed for towing?

Image
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
James, I do have an original (which was likely dealer-installed) hitch and harness. How does that affect your assessment? Corrosion on the connector terminals?

Thanks for your help!

John
 
You cannot tow a 4WD the normal way, you need to disconnect the drive line or lift up both front and rear wheels entirely from the pavement to make it possible to have a 4WD drive car towed.

And yes, either your bulb base has been melted together or a relay has gone bad.
Let me know if you have checked all bulbs and those where not the issue, i will give you the diagram with the spots of the relays.
Greetz

Pim
 
James, I do have an original (which was likely dealer-installed) hitch and harness. How does that affect your assessment? Corrosion on the connector terminals?

Thanks for your help!

John
That's a possibility. If that's not it, see if you can disconnect the wiring harness and put everything back to the normal wiring layout and see if that fixes it.
 
I'm hoping this is more common than my unsuccessful searches here would suggest. My '96 manual's brake-light switch (which of course is activated when the brake pedal is pushed more than just a bit) has begun to pick up hitchhikers. For a week or so it has been a warning tone (either lights-left-on or key-left-in-ignition) when the brake pedal is pushed with the engine off. Then today that was joined by the right turn signal (front and rear as well as the dash light) whether the vehicle is running or not. When underway, the right turn signal operates normally unless I apply the brakes; then it just stays on until I release the brakes, when it resumes operating normally.
That sounds like a ground connection is open in one of your lights that uses a dual filament bulb. A dual filament bulb ( as shown in Junebug's images) has two filaments. Both filaments share a common ground. When you step on the brake, current normally travels from one side of the filament to ground, or as some people like to say "the path of least resistance". If the ground is broken the current will continue to flow through the second filament, and put voltage on the normal lighting circuit.

If this is the case, you should notice that one taillight is dimmer than the other one. That will be the light with the problem. In your case it sounds like the problem is on the right side.

Edit: Just noticed this is not a 4.3 RAV, so I don't know if it uses dual filament bulbs or not. The same thing can happen to single filament bulbs if the ground of each socket is tied together and then share a common ground to the chassis. The ground point could be loose or corroded.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. I did remove the taillight assemblies and found one (maybe) odd thing: Both of the tail/brake dual-filament bulbs were darkened, though their terminals seemed to be OK and they seem to work fine. I will replace them tomorrow and see if some fresh stuff makes a difference. Also, the lights-on tone has stopped sounding except when appropriate, so I'm hoping this is one of those old-car problems that courteously just fixes itself. Right.

John
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Well, the new taillight bulbs were not the miracle cure I'd hoped for, so here's my final question: Given that this all started with a non-bulb-related problem (the lights-left-on warning tone sounding when the brake was pressed with the ignition off), does that suggest a relay? Both symptoms involve the lighting system, but the first (the tone) had the Rav THINKING the lights were on, while the second (the right turn signal) has it actually illuminating lights it shouldn't. I have a few friends who think my car is behaving like its owner (delusional and inappropriate).

Thanks again for the input. I know it's time to take it in, but electrical problems have always been my money-pit.

John
 
Given that this all started with a non-bulb-related problem (the lights-left-on warning tone sounding when the brake was pressed with the ignition off), does that suggest a relay? Both symptoms involve the lighting system, but the first (the tone) had the Rav THINKING the lights were on, while the second (the right turn signal) has it actually illuminating lights it shouldn't.
John, since I don't have a 4.1 RAV, can you tell me if your rear directional signals are amber, or do they just flash the red brake light. Also how many bulbs do you have in the light housing. I assume you have a single dual filament for tail and brake lights, and a reverse light, and possibly another light for the amber turn signal.

Have you noticed if any of your bulbs are dimmer than normal when the switch is in the parking or headlight position?
 
John, since my last message I found a diagram for a 1999 RAV4, which I assume would be very close to your 1996.

The lighting system is very basic, and doesn't involve any relays at all. I think the most likely problem is that the ground wire for the rear right lamp housing has come loose. There should be a black and white striped wire running from the lamp housing to a ground point at the front of the right rear quarter panel. This is most likely a screw through a ring crimped onto the BLK/WHT wire. make sure this connection is clean and tight.

When you checked the bulbs earlier you said the "lights on" warning problem had cleared up. I think you may have moved that ground wire while you were working and temporarily solved your problem.

As a quick test I suggest removing all the bulbs from the right rear lamp assembly and see if the problem disappears. If not, then try the same on the left rear assembly. If neither of these tests resolves the problem I think the problem will be in the connections for your trailer lights. If that's the case you may find that the wire carrying the brake signal is contacting the wire with the regular taillight signal.

I wish I could offer more, but I'm just working from a diagram and assuming your RAV4 is the same. The diagram does confirm my original theory though.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Wow, thanks for such a well-researched reply, Rick. As it turns out, I just was able to check out how everything is working now that it's dark, and it's even more bizarre than I thought. I'm putting on a real show. When I use my right turn signal, all three of the brake lights - including the center high-mounted one - flash along with it. I assume (since I'm doing this alone) that when I step on the brake it's normal except for the right turn signal burning steady along with the brakes. The four-way flasher lights up everything except the back-up lights and the license plate. Anyway, I'm not sure if any of this interferes with your theory, but I hope you're right since it's an easy DIY fix. One thing is for sure: If I can't fix it tomorrow I'll have to take it to my mechanic. This is dangerous.

Thank you again for going to so much trouble, Rick. Wish me luck.

John
 
When I use my right turn signal, all three of the brake lights - including the center high-mounted one - flash along with it. I assume (since I'm doing this alone) that when I step on the brake it's normal except for the right turn signal burning steady along with the brakes. The four-way flasher lights up everything except the back-up lights and the license plate.
Since the right, left, and center brake lights are all tied together, it is normal for all of them to come on at the same time. That's what they do normally.

What is happening is that your right turn signal is connected to the brake lights. When put voltage on the brake lights the turn signal comes on and when you put voltage on the turn signal the brakes come on.

When you turn on the hazard lights, you are connecting the left and right turn signals together, so both turn signals come on when you touch the brakes, and the brakes flash with the turn signals. Since you also said you were previously getting the "lights on alarm", it looks like you were getting brake voltage on the parking light circuit as well. You never answered my question about the turn signals being separate, but judging from the diagram and what you just described, I assume they are.

So final diagnosis is if the brake light if about half the brightness on the right side, then you probably have a loose ground. If the brightness is the same, then probably the brake and turn signals are shorted inside your electronic trailer light adapter (usually required if you have amber or separate turn signals), or in the associated wiring. Maybe the cable got squeezed in the door or something similar.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
OK, Rick, sorry I didn't supply the info about the amber turn signals. Yes, they are separate from the tail/brake lights. My guess (again, I did my tests without an assistant) is that all of the lights are functioning at normal brightness, but I'll confirm that for certain and move on to your suggested fixes. I've only owned this little thing for about a year and a half, and in that time it's never been anything but perfect (for a 16-year-old car), so I'm not used to having it misbehave. I really appreciate your help and will keep you posted.

John
 
OK, Rick, sorry I didn't supply the info about the amber turn signals. Yes, they are separate from the tail/brake lights. My guess (again, I did my tests without an assistant) is that all of the lights are functioning at normal brightness,
Based on the normal brightness, and the fact that the turn signals are amber (requiring an electronic trailer light adapter) , I suspect the trailer adapter is the problem, but check that the wires leading to the trailer connector have not become damaged as well.

You never mentioned it, but does your right front turn signal light up when you step on the brake?
 
Yes, Rick, the front right turn signal is in on the party, as is the dash indicator. Is that good or bad news?John
I would say it's good news because it should be on if the wiring is shorted at the electronic trailer adapter. I would have to come up with another theory if it wasn't on.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
OK, Rick, I realize that my RAV is way older and therefore different from yours, but I'll ask just in case you might know: Where is this adapter? My trailer harness winds behind the hitch and then disappears up into what I would call the sill of the back door (passing through a rectangular grommet), somewhat to the right and below the left tail light. Do I need to disassemble the interior plastic that surrounds that whole area to access the unit you're referring to?

Thanks.

John
 
OK, Rick, I realize that my RAV is way older and therefore different from yours, but I'll ask just in case you might know: Where is this adapter? My trailer harness winds behind the hitch and then disappears up into what I would call the sill of the back door (passing through a rectangular grommet), somewhat to the right and below the left tail light. Do I need to disassemble the interior plastic that surrounds that whole area to access the unit you're referring to?
It is usually located in one of the storage areas behind either of the taillights. On the 4.3 RAV's there is a removable cover on either side of the cargo area that allows access to the jack and toolkit.
 
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