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2005 RAV4 very rough start

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ericb_rav4

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2005 RAV4 4WD
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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Condition:
Our 2005 RAV recently became nearly impossible to start. It cranks and cranks and cranks. Finally (sometimes) it will start. If it starts, it will sputter quite a bit. On the occasions when it starts, I have to pump the gas pedal (not sure that actually does anything). Sometimes it will crank long enough to drain the battery so that it needs to be charged.

Recent changes:
Replaced battery (Sept 2020)
Replaced spark plugs and valve cover gasket (July 2021)
Added one can of freon to the AC (August 2021)
Replaced thermostat and coolant (Sept 2021)

Background:
The problem started after the coolant flush. After replacing the thermostat, it started fine a few times. Then I drained the coolant to flush it. After flushing with water a couple times, I added a radiator cleaning product and topped off with water. It started fine. I drove it about 5 miles and parked for a couple hours. The problem started then. It wouldn't start at all. I had it towed home. Now it's in the driveway so I can troubleshoot. I've gotten it to start a few times (as described above). Anything is possible, but could the coolant flush have impacted the ability to start?

I read post 2.5L Rough Start about rough starting. As someone mentioned there, I'm going to investigate the MAF sensor. I haven't replaced the air filter. I checked power and ground to all the coil packs and they are all good. Could the fuel pump be weak? (Is that even a thing, or are they either work or don't work?) Maybe a problem with fuel pressure?

Our RAV has 311,000 miles. It had 285,000 when we got it for free from a friend for our kids to drive. Up until this rough start problem, it has ran fine. So I don't want to give up on it yet.

Thanks for any suggestions!
 
#3 ·
As it idles fine when it is running, that is a good sign, and rules out issues with blocked exhaust, timing or blown engine.

The very long crank could be caused by a multitude of things. However, as it started after the thermostat job, and coolant, I would go and do a thorough visual inspection of the harness and connectors associated with the cooling system - is something broken, loose, unattached etc?

If not I think you are going to need an OBD2 reader to look at base data to see if anything stands out as not plausible when the car is cold.

Try the inspection, and get back to us.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
Bigphil555 said:
Try the inspection, and get back to us.
Click to expand...
I did an inspection of all connectors and wires (that I could access). Nothing jumped out at me. So I decided to take a look at the fuel pump. It's easily accessible under the back seat. I popped the cover and lightly-ish tapped on the top of the pump with a screw driver. I tried starting and viola! It has started quickly several times in a row.

So now I know it's related to the fuel pump. I guess it could be the pump itself, or the fuel filter. I think I'll replace both and go from there.
 
#6 ·
I didn't realize I resurrected a post from the "General" thread and not "Faults and Fixes" :rolleyes:
www.rav4world.com

Rav4 Starting Problem on first start

Hi All, My 2004 Rav4 cranks at normal speed but takes long to start after sitting for a few hours. I have no check engine light or codes. I had the battery, alternator and started tested and they were fine. I went ahead and got a new battery anyway and that did not make a difference. I...
www.rav4world.com www.rav4world.com

But I'm having the same problem. 99% have concluded it's the fuel pump as well. My problem is most pronounced after it's been sitting overnight when the temperature drops. No bueno when the family is camping in the mountains . . .
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Well, back to the drawing board. I just finished the fuel pump replacement (new strainer too). On first start, it struggled, but it started. Took about 10 seconds of cranking. I figured this might be due to needing the fuel lines to be re-primed because I relieved fuel pressure before I started the job.

So I drove it about 8 miles to town.Parked. Engine off. Tried starting back up immediately. Worked perfect. I go into the store for 5 minutes, now we're back to square one. Just cranks and cranks.

I took my code reader on the trip. No CEL and no codes. I tried some starter fluid in the air intake. Still no luck. :(

I noticed a new symptom. When I was still at home and got it started the first time, I noticed some faint white smoke from the exhaust and a few drips of water. Not sure if that means coolant in the engine. Maybe that's been the problem all along
 
#9 ·
Apologies for asking an obvious question, but: are you sure it's the fuel system and not the ignition system? Are you getting fuel to the injectors and are they working; and are you getting spark? Did the starter fluid have any effect at all?
 
#10 ·
ericb_rav4 said:
I took my code reader on the trip. No CEL and no codes. I tried some starter fluid in the air intake. Still no luck. :(
Click to expand...
My ECU also doesn't detect a problem.

ericb_rav4 said:
I noticed a new symptom. When I was still at home and got it started the first time, I noticed some faint white smoke from the exhaust and a few drips of water. Not sure if that means coolant in the engine. Maybe that's been the problem all along
Click to expand...
This is expected during normal operating conditions and should clear as the engine and exhaust warm up. Water vapor is a natural byproduct of combustion. During cold winter months, and/or high humidity environments, the amount of vapor produced will actually form liquid droplets, visible from tailpipes of your fellow travelers on your way to work in the morning. When the engine and exhaust (particularly the catalytic converters) reach operating temperature, the exhaust gases will be so hot as to suspend the water vapor in suspension, invisible to the human eye. If indeed water droplets persist long after warmup, you may well have a problem. Probably of the head gasket flavor.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Jonathan_Q said:
Apologies for asking an obvious question, but: are you sure it's the fuel system and not the ignition system? Are you getting fuel to the injectors and are they working; and are you getting spark? Did the starter fluid have any effect at all?
Click to expand...
It could be the injectors. I'm sure they are original and have never been serviced. I replaced the spark plugs a couple months ago. So they should be good, plus once it's running it idles ok. The starter fluid had no effect.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
I have new information. I don't believe it's related to fuel or injectors. I pulled the oil dipstick and noticed milky brown oil. I see the same on the oil cap. So it's likely coolant in the engine. This makes sense now. My problem started after the thermostat went bad. The car over-heating is what prompted the thermostat replacement. During that event the temperature gauge reached the max (although momentary) a few times as I limped the car home (about 8 miles). I presume that event caused a problem in the head gasket or cylinder head itself. I think this would explain the difficulty starting. I also noticed much more white exhaust the last time I got it to start.

I'm not sure this is related, but I pulled all the spark plugs to examine them and found trace amounts of engine oil on the tips. It was not a huge amount. The tube wasn't covered in oil, but it was noticeable. I cleaned the plugs and put them back in. I tried starting after this and it worked. It struggled as before, but not quite as bad.

So looks like I'll be pulling the head off. Any suggestions or feedback is appreciated.
 
#15 ·
If the head gasket isn't completely shot (since it runs it must not be) try some Alumaseal. $7 and I've seen it save expensive repairs.
 
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#16 ·
ericb_rav4 said:
My problem started after the thermostat went bad. The car over-heating is what prompted the thermostat replacement. During that event the temperature gauge reached the max (although momentary) a few times as I limped the car home (about 8 miles).
Click to expand...
🤦‍♂️
I would have led with that tid-bit of information from the beginning. What you're describing now is the Dim Mak death touch for a 2AZ-FE. These engines appear to tolerate overheating events far worse than you might think.
Dr. Dyno said:
If the head gasket isn't completely shot (since it runs it must not be) try some Alumaseal. $7 and I've seen it save expensive repairs.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree that trying a $7 fix can't hurt, but I am of the opinion that coolant in the engine oil is a graveyard spiral. If you changed the head gasket now before more damage is done, you might be able to salvage the remainder of the internals from further harm.
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
I'm trying some head gasket sealer in a bottle today. If that doesn't "fix it" then I'm contemplating pulling the head and replacing the gasket. I've read some horror stories about the head bolts breaking or threads being stripped. Before I tackle that project, is this a valid concern? Is this a common occurrence? What's the likelihood of running into something like that?
 
#18 ·
ericb_rav4 said:
I've read some horror stories about the head bolts breaking or threads being stripped. Before I tackle that project, is this a valid concern? Is this a common occurrence? What's the likelihood of running into something like that?
Click to expand...
After overheating the engine and continuing to operate afterwards with a warped head gasket, evidence so far suggests 100% likelihood 🤷‍♂️

There's some debate whether or not the head bolts cause the overheating, versus overheating causing the headbolts to strip. I'm of the opinion head bolts can't "wear out" as described by folks who believe the overheating is due to damaged head bolts. Also, no incident that I'm aware of have the head bolts been stripped without a corresponding overheating event. This isn't just a correlation = causation argument: in fact no evidence I've found mentions water in the motor oil prior to overheating. Meaning the head bolts hadn't gone bad so quickly as between oil changes. The lowest common denominator is the overheating event, which can be caused by a myriad of circumstances, at which point a failed head gasket and stripped bolts are discovered almost immediately after.

There is a fix however, like the Time Sert® thread repair endorsed by Toyota:
 
#20 ·
I've just changed the oil in mine, no water present as expected. I've ordered a new fuel pump and regulator, may be a couple weeks before I get around to changing them.

Went to the mountains again this weekend, broke 100k miles 🎉(woohoo). So far I think I can confirm quite positively the problem I'm experiencing is a lean condition on cold start. The problem only exists on mornings below 40°F, although I expect the condition is getting worse over time. I believe the flame out that occurred at the Oregon coast was further excacerbated by low density altitude.

There's a few members asking me about hard starting problems and I'm trying to consolidate member experiences and solutions to a single thread. Ericb found out he's got a blown head gasket. I'm hypothesizing I've got a fuel pressure problem and will respond back to this thread when figured out.
 
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