[Cavalry]

I'm simply tie what toyota has given us and real world testimony to refute the idea and concept that these engines were "designed" or "engineered" to run on a specific oil, in this case 0w-16. That simply isn't the case, and goes against toyota's global platform and drivetrain vision. To say that components, whether it be the ECM or oil pumps are programed to run on a specific oil (which is yet to be proven), doesn't mean that the engines themselves are designed or engineered as a whole with oil viscosity in mind, as many have claimed here, especially when our engines are all being produced in the same factories and distributed to different markets worldwide.

You're right ... they're not designed to run on oil, they're designed to RUN (or to run on gasoline). Even then there are choices in gasoline that can fit the engineers visions. Oil is then designed to run in their creation and they pick the one they feel is best. That's not to say Toyota's engineers are perfect. Far from it in fact. It's a team effort that makes their cars mostly reliable. The thing that I don't like about the oil situation is not the viscosity choice but the 10K miles recommended oil change interval. That is nuts because no matter HOW well they design the engines OR the oils, contamination from burnt and unburnt gasoline WILL OCCUR and once you start approaching 5% gasoline in your oil, the metal will fall like parmesan from a grater.

 

[Rav4Outdoorsman]

You're right ... they're not designed to run on oil, they're designed to RUN (or to run on gasoline). Even then there are choices in gasoline that can fit the engineers visions. Oil is then designed to run in their creation and they pick the one they feel is best. That's not to say Toyota's engineers are perfect. Far from it in fact. It's a team effort that makes their cars mostly reliable. The thing that I don't like about the oil situation is not the viscosity choice but the 10K miles recommended oil change interval. That is nuts because no matter HOW well they design the engines OR the oils, contamination from burnt and unburnt gasoline WILL OCCUR and once you start approaching 5% gasoline in your oil, the metal will fall like parmesan from a grater.

A play of my words. ok.

When you say that "they pick the one they feel is best", who are you referring to and what does "best" refer to? Are referring to solely the engineers, because they aren't the sole authors of the manual and don't solely dictate what oil is called for without some degree of outside influence, whether it be legal, financial, etc. And is "best" for the best driving dynamics of the vehicle? best for long term reliability? best for efficiency standards and milestones? depending on how a vehicle is driven and used, these may all be different things. But understand that it isn't simply engineers making the sole decision. If toyota wanted to engineer an indestructible or extremely efficient engine without requirements, they absolutely could. Key word in that last statement is "requirements" and generally speaking, engineers don't have a giant say in them from a corporate standpoint.

As for 10k intervals, I personally wouldn't unless I'm logging highway miles exclusively. Nobody is forcing you to change it at 10k mile intervals. Change as frequent as you see fit or get a UOA done to have metrics and data back up your decision if necessary. I personally change it every 5k miles, since its easier to align with the maintenance schedule and because my vehicle sees severe service per the manual. Fuel contamination that you mention is yet another reason I personally don't find 0w-16 suitable in defending from, especially for those changing at 10k intervals. When that additive pack is depleted, your oil is diluted with a solvent, and your oil isn't inherently all that HTHS-stable to begin with, it sounds like what you're left with is a recipe for excessive wear.

 

[Tazio Nuvolari]

When that additive pack is depleted, your oil is diluted with a solvent, and your oil isn't inherently all that HTHS-stable to begin with, it sounds like what you're left with is a recipe for excessive wear.

That's me understanding at a HTHS-unstable oil is not the best option while towing through the mountains outside of phoenix in August, towing through the alps, or driving on the autobahn at 100mph.

I would like to discuss whether Mobil 1 is better than the OEM Toyota oil. From the BITOG forum it seems that the TGMO 0w16 uses an inferior base stock to the Mobil1 and the TGMO is in reality not a true fully synthetic oil but more of a "blended" oil. Also from BITOG, the TGMO uses a cheaper, older form of Moly in its additive package and Mobil 1 uses a newer more advanced Moly formulation and this is why the TGMO has higher PPM moly--you don't need as much of the new Moly in Mobil 1 to get the same anti-wear result.

 

[Rav4Outdoorsman]

I would like to discuss whether Mobil 1 is better than the OEM Toyota oil. From the BITOG forum it seems that the TGMO 0w16 uses an inferior base stock to the Mobil1 and the TGMO is in reality not a true fully synthetic oil but more of a "blended" oil. Also from BITOG, the TGMO uses a cheaper, older form of Moly in its additive package and Mobil 1 uses a newer more advanced Moly formulation and this is why the TGMO has higher PPM moly--you don't need as much of the new Moly in Mobil 1 to get the same anti-wear result.

I don't have enough of a background on the matter to discuss the differences in di and tri moly formulations. I do know that moly is a relatively cheap anti wear additive, so it may come down to whatever is most cost effective for Toyota while still meeting its requirements. Since exxon mobil is able to produce it's own formulations for it's oils and internalize its processes, i'm sure it results in keeping consumer prices down while still being able to provide a quality product. At 5k mile intervals with normal driving, I'm not sure it matters which one is used. If I used 0w-16, I'd personally opt for the Ravenol EFE 0w-16 while still retaining 5k intervals for the enhanced hths stability claims.

 

[anndel]

Have the 2 year free maintenance and took it in to the dealer for the first service at 6 months (~4800 miles). The Service Writer said the first service is only tire rotations so I asked if he could move up and do the 2nd service which included the oil change and they did it. I saw on the invoice that they used 0W-20 oil. I did it myself at 12 mos and used Mobil 1 0W-16 oil with a Toyota OEM filter (YZZN1). The owner's manual says 0W-20 is fine but use 0W-16 on the next change. I didn't notice any differences in MPG between the both.

 

[Rav4Outdoorsman]

Have the 2 year free maintenance and took it in to the dealer for the first service at 6 months (~4800 miles). The Service Writer said the first service is only tire rotations so I asked if he could move up and do the 2nd service which included the oil change and they did it. I saw on the invoice that they used 0W-20 oil. I did it myself at 12 mos and used Mobil 1 0W-16 oil with a Toyota OEM filter (YZZN1). The owner's manual says 0W-20 is fine but use 0W-16 on the next change. I didn't notice any differences in MPG between the both.

Toyota dealers are notorious for using 0w-20 in place of 0w-16, as are quick lube and most local mechanics, as they don't stock 0w-16. Rest assured 0w-20 is perfectly fine to use in these vehicles and has shown no signs of adverse effects with long term use on multiple dynamic force engine platforms. The statement from toyota to revert back to the original viscosity is something toyota has been doing for over a decade now to show it's dedication to CAFE standards and fleet efficiency milestones. The single user will never see the MPG efficiency differences in the 2 oils, as there are far too many factors that contribute to MPG. If it means anything, I've been averaging 53.7 MPG over the past 5 days on my 30-minute daily commute while using 0w-20 oil, according to trip computers and hand calculations (about 0.3 mpg spread between the 2 numbers). Ultimately use whatever meets the criteria for your driving conditions, change it based upon the service criteria, and check the levels often.

 

[Rav4-lim]

The difference in viscosity between 16W and 20W would be almost indistinguishable in practical use

The 0w16 oil weight has more to do with fuel economy than anything else.

Go back to where I showed that almost all the acceptable-use grades are all about the same viscosity at operating temp.
I guess you can run the math to show some fleet fuel savings for the small period between start (cold oil) and hot (operating temp). Probably some gray area in there because many times "cold" vehicles often sit idle to allow engine to warm up before driving, so mpg's are basically zero at that point (wasted fuel in terms of travel), but you also get "poor" mpg's driving while the vehicle is cold. So I suspect the claimed increase in fuel eficiency is somewhere below the lab tests.

So, nobody claims a w16 is not better fuel economy than say a SAE20 or even a SAE30 at operating temp, but I suspect the difference is super small and makes no real practical difference in the grand scheme of "save the planet". I would be more concerned about oil consumption (buring the oil, they all burn oil) than fuel economy.

The solution is eV's, but not battery eV's. With fusion reactor on brink of being commercial grade power, creating H is basically "free" (forever), and is non-toxic like lithium batts are.

 

[WillemK]

That's true. By "four years" , here is what I meant: Back when the 5th gen was introduced in 2019 (4 years ago) the only available public information on the engine oil was the US Owners Manual recommending 0w16 and then making the other vague and cryptic comments about thicker viscosities for high speeds or loads. Shortly afterwards the Car Care Nut started his series of videos also insisting on 0w16. We all had little knowledge back then about the inner workings of the 5th gen Dynamic Force Engine. It had a lot of new things. It was said to be an Atkinson Cycle engine--not Otto Cycle. It had oil squirters or nozzles to lubricate the cylinder bores. It had special valve or valve seat coatings. It had an EGR between the intake manifold and cylinder head. It had a variable speed oil pump and a control valve operated by the ECM. It SEEMED PRUDENT in those early years to stringently follow that 0w16 recommendation. Subsequently many people by necessity had to use 0w20 oil because the 0w16 was unavailable due to the global supply chain crisis and Covid. Then later on we got posts from Europe, Australia, Mexico and elsewhere with copies of their Owners Manuals showing that Toyota recommended a variety of alternative "thicker" viscosities other than the still recommended 0w16. Now, after 4 years, there have been many posts here in this forum, in ToyotaNation (including the 8th gen Camry forum using our same engine), Reddit Rav4Club, and the BITOG forum which make it clear that EITHER 0w16 or 0w20 are BOTH safe in our engines. Many people have racked up high mileages some well over 100K miles on 0w20 with no bearing or other internal mechanical damage and no VVT or EGR problems. My thinking on the use of 0w20 has evolved with the evidence over these 4 years. I still don't think it would be wise in the US to use say 0w30 or 10w-30 oil--there are no posts or evidence yet about the safety of those viscosities.

 

[WillemK]

I have checked many gen 5 owners manuals in different languages, they are all on line. All of them that I’ve checked regarding oil say the same. And that makes sense if you think about it that viscosity of modern synthetic oils sais nothing anymore about oil films, lubrication, longevity and so on. That’s probably why Car Care Nut his advice is to stay with 0W16. My guess it is all about the old school thinking versus the new way of looking at oils. And that makes sense. Like I said earlier, of all these new synthetic oils, 0W16 has the widest temperature range. Don’t know about 0W10 and 8 though but I think same story. Over here in the Netherlands, the dealerships all use 5W30. The discussions on Dutch fora were similar as everywhere else in the world I guess. And Toyota Japan is responsible for that as they leave much open for discussion if you read what they say about oil in all manuals. And that’s exactly why I stick to the advice given by Car Care Nut. So far, I have had no problems with 0W16, even putting heavy loads on the engine by towing a trailer through the Alps. And the dealer already knows when I bring the car in for servicing. Still, no oil stickers under the hood telling 0W16 must be used. And Dutch warrenty on all new and pre owned Toyota’s is now 10 years, provided you bring the car to a Toyota workshop for maintenance every year or earlier when required. Ten years, also if 5W30 is used. And the truth about oil and what can, must, may be used probably lies somewhere in between. In Switserland, where my youngest son lives, 0W20 is used and adviced by the dealerships there. My son put 130.000kms on his first edition 2019 fwd 5th gen RAV4 without any problems whatsoever.

 

[Rav4Outdoorsman]

I have checked many gen 5 owners manuals in different languages, they are all on line. All of them that I’ve checked regarding oil say the same. And that makes sense if you think about it that viscosity of modern synthetic oils sais nothing anymore about oil films, lubrication, longevity and so on. That’s probably why Car Care Nut his advice is to stay with 0W16. My guess it is all about the old school thinking versus the new way of looking at oils. And that makes sense. Like I said earlier, of all these new synthetic oils, 0W16 has the widest temperature range. Don’t know about 0W10 and 8 though but I think same story. Over here in the Netherlands, the dealerships all use 5W30. The discussions on Dutch fora were similar as everywhere else in the world I guess. And Toyota Japan is responsible for that as they leave much open for discussion if you read what they say about oil in all manuals. And that’s exactly why I stick to the advice given by Car Care Nut. So far, I have had no problems with 0W16, even putting heavy loads on the engine by towing a trailer through the Alps. And the dealer already knows when I bring the car in for servicing. Still, no oil stickers under the hood telling 0W16 must be used. And Dutch warrenty on all new and pre owned Toyota’s is now 10 years, provided you bring the car to a Toyota workshop for maintenance every year or earlier when required. Ten years, also if 5W30 is used. And the truth about oil and what can, must, may be used probably lies somewhere in between. In Switserland, where my youngest son lives, 0W20 is used and adviced by the dealerships there. My son put 130.000kms on his first edition 2019 fwd 5th gen RAV4 without any problems whatsoever.

Have you had a used oil analysis performed on your oil, and at what intervals are you changing it? Here in Germany, I frequently tow a small camper, often times through the alps, and because of it i've stepped up to a more HTHS shear-stable redline 0w-20. I would estimate that at least 95% of RAV4 owners aren't exposing their vehicle to the stresses that I regularly am. Temperature range of the oil doesn't exactly represent that the oil is shear stable when exposed to continuous torque/stress. While temperature does play a limited role in those shear metrics, it's more so a measure of protection when faced with high stress/high load conditions, which is critical when using the vehicle in such a manner. The pursuit of using low viscosity oils comes with the sacrifice of shear stability, which is why you typically see that gasoline vehicles made for regular towing/hauling/work (trucks and SUVs) where HTHS conditions are present, are limited at utilizing 0w-20, whereas normal passenger vehicles creep beyond that threshold into more lower viscosity oils like 16, 12, 8 etc. The oils simply don't hold up as well to these types of stresses as 0w-20 and other "heavier" oils. That doesn't mean that 0w-16 is necessarily "bad", it's just not meant for work beyond regular driving and commuting. For Toyota and other automakers, it's all about finding the acceptable threshold of maximum efficiency while still allowing the vehicle to perform the way it is intended to be used (at least in the US).

 

[Rav4-lim]

My guess it is all about the old school thinking versus the new way of looking at oils

There's no such thing. Physics & Chemistry has been well understood for a century+, maybe 2century+.
There's a small slice of R&D with motor oil where they add/subtract stuff to obtain some wanted characteristic, but done via straight up physics and chemistry. It's not any new way of looking at it, it's new ways of creating a oil.

I frequently tow a small camper, often times through the alps, and because of it i've stepped up to a more HTHS shear-stable redline 0w-20

Why not a 0-30 ?
All 0's are the same when cold. Hot, a -20 is about the same as a -30. However, HTHS will be different.

 

[Dryl00]

I'm sure 0w30 will be fine in warmer climates. Toyota makes no warnings or alerts that using a higher viscosity could cause engine failer or damage. The only statement they make refers to fuel economy.

 

[Cavalry]

Keep going! It won't be long and we'll be right back to 10W-40!

 

[Dryl00]

The cutoff is 30

 

[Rav4Outdoorsman]

There's no such thing. Physics & Chemistry has been well understood for a century+, maybe 2century+.
There's a small slice of R&D with motor oil where they add/subtract stuff to obtain some wanted characteristic, but done via straight up physics and chemistry. It's not any new way of looking at it, it's new ways of creating a oil.


Why not a 0-30 ?
All 0's are the same when cold. Hot, a -20 is about the same as a -30. However, HTHS will be different.

Because I already have cases of the redline in my garage. Last I check I had just over 35 quarts left. I think I’ll be ok for awhile 👍🏻

 

[redrav52]

One of my favorite YouTube channels just did an analysis of 0-20 and 0-16 oil and they came out just about the same. View for yourself:

 

[Cavalry]

One of my favorite YouTube channels just did an analysis of 0-20 and 0-16 oil and they came out just about the same. View for yourself:

This guy is one of my favorites too. In fact I used data from another one of his oil tests in a recently shut down oil thread (it's back now with posts removed) to try and convice people not to go beyond 5K miles between changes.

However, did you watch the whole video through the end? Just before the lab results and conclusion I was starting to think a heavier oil was needed but the 0W-16 ended up winning due to it's additives and he concluded that everyone should use whatever oil weight the manufactuer suggests.

 

[Variman]

Has anyone contacted Toyota USA and asked for clarification on the statement:

From Page 673 of the 2019 hybrid manual "An oil with a higher
viscosity (one with a higher
value) may be better suited if
the vehicle is operated at high
speeds, or under extreme
load conditions."

One would think that Toyota USA should be able to provide guidance if someone is using their vehicle under these conditions.

As far as the Mobile one vs Castrol, don't manufactures change formulations and often keep the exact formulations secret? If so, comparing brand products from a few years ago may not be a good indication of what's currently available. After SAE and API certifications, perhaps all we really have left are BITOG opinions and test data posted by consumers to help make decisions.

 

[Encinoman45]

This guy is one of my favorites too. In fact I used data from another one of his oil tests in a recently shut down oil thread (it's back now with posts removed) to try and convice people not to go beyond 5K miles between changes.

However, did you watch the whole video through the end? Just before the lab results and conclusion I was starting to think a heavier oil was needed but the 0W-16 ended up winning due to it's additives and he concluded that everyone should use whatever oil weight the manufactuer suggests.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. He did not indicate any particular oil won. The 0w16 had more additives but the additives were not enough to compensate for additional wear compared to the other oils. The 0w16 had the worst wear scar of all the oils. The 5w30 had an 8% smaller wear scar than the 0w16. The heavier the oil weight, the better the wear performance.

 

[Cavalry]

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. He did not indicate any particular oil won. The 0w16 had more additives but the additives were not enough to compensate for additional wear compared to the other oils. The 0w16 had the worst wear scar of all the oils. The 5w30 had an 8% smaller wear scar than the 0w16. The heavier the oil weight, the better the wear performance.

I'm not sure how you did not arrive at the same conclusion. Watch the last couple of minutes again. It's right at the 9 minute mark but I'd suggest starting a minute or so before that ... the 0W16 that he sent to the lab beat them all (but not by a huge margin). The lab results surprised me because the 0W-16 still retained more of it's protectants and/or faired better. Then at the very end he said to use what the mfg says to use. The whole reason he did the test was because of the concerns he's been hearing about 0W-16 is and his conclusion was it's fine and the lab tests proved that.