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If YOU would read the engineering documents coming out of Toyota Japan, and many other makes, you will find that in the past 15+ years, they ALL have trended toward designing engines with (a) finer tolerances, and (b) the need of those engines to use thinner oils, for BEST protection.

This is why ALL makes back-spec thinner oils for SOME of their legacy motors, but not all.

This is why putting 0w-16 in a 1960's vintage engine or any of those from the 1970s would greatly shorten their life because they were designed with WIDER tolerances, which demand thicker oils.

It's about thinner tolerances, and your refusal to face facts. You also refuse to look at Used Oil Analysis, thousands of them that prove thinner oils do in fact protect today's latest engines.

Thin oils will screw up engines that have wider tolerances like those most engines pre 2000's. And thinner oils like 0w-16 will INCREASE the life of the latest engines for 2021.

I would suggest you lean not unto your own understanding, and instead go with science, the experts at Toyota engineering, and facts: UOA's. You change your oil at 5,000 miles out of zero evidence to do so. What you do not understand is that oil loses its additive package protection LONG BEFORE it's viscosity is thinned to the point of being too thin.
Can you state what the main and rod bearing clearances are for the 5th gen RAV4 Dynamic Force 2.5 liter engine and then tell us the clearances on the 1st,2nd, 3d, and 4th generation Rav4 engines so that we can all see that you are correct--ie, that our Dynamic Force engines have tighter tolerances.
 

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I'm still waiting for someone to provide a fact-based explanation as to why Toyota reduces the oil change interval to 5,000 miles when using any weight other than 0-16. It's not because Toyota cares about what MPG I happen to be getting.
 

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If YOU would read the engineering documents coming out of Toyota Japan, and many other makes, you will find that in the past 15+ years, they ALL have trended toward designing engines with (a) finer tolerances, and (b) the need of those engines to use thinner oils, for BEST protection.

This is why ALL makes back-spec thinner oils for SOME of their legacy motors, but not all.

This is why putting 0w-16 in a 1960's vintage engine or any of those from the 1970s would greatly shorten their life because they were designed with WIDER tolerances, which demand thicker oils.

It's about thinner tolerances, and your refusal to face facts. You also refuse to look at Used Oil Analysis, thousands of them that prove thinner oils do in fact protect today's latest engines.

Thin oils will screw up engines that have wider tolerances like those most engines pre 2000's. And thinner oils like 0w-16 will INCREASE the life of the latest engines for 2021.

I would suggest you lean not unto your own understanding, and instead go with science, the experts at Toyota engineering, and facts: UOA's. You change your oil at 5,000 miles out of zero evidence to do so. What you do not understand is that oil loses its additive package protection LONG BEFORE it's viscosity is thinned to the point of being too thin.
I guess you can't read either Tight Engine Tolerances Change Lubrication Needs


Has nothing to do with tolerances - everything to do with mileage. If your comparing to small block Chevy - sure. But nothing designed in the last 20 years. CNC and lost foam technology has been around for 20 years, meaning they could get tolerances as tight as they wanted, but there is no real benefit to doing so.

Since your such an engine expert - answer me this. Since its well proven over a couple decades that engines can easily outlast the design life of the vehicle - and making the tolerances tighter costs more money - but doesn't improve power or efficiency much at all - why on earth would Toyota make tolerances tighter?

Thinner oil + Variable volume oil pump means = better fuel mileage. That's the commercial business driver.
 

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I guess you can't read either Tight Engine Tolerances Change Lubrication Needs


Has nothing to do with tolerances - everything to do with mileage. If your comparing to small block Chevy - sure. But nothing designed in the last 20 years. CNC and lost foam technology has been around for 20 years, meaning they could get tolerances as tight as they wanted, but there is no real benefit to doing so.

Since your such an engine expert - answer me this. Since its well proven over a couple decades that engines can easily outlast the design life of the vehicle - and making the tolerances tighter costs more money - but doesn't improve power or efficiency much at all - why on earth would Toyota make tolerances tighter?

Thinner oil + Variable volume oil pump means = better fuel mileage. That's the commercial business driver.
It's really sad that others will read your posts, and think you speak the truth, but you spread disinformation. I read your link again, and it does not support what you say, and in fact, the cite at the bottom of your linked site is from the last century, WELL OVER 40 years ago! Long before the improvements for light oils such as w16, w20 and long before these were even embraced by the auto industry.

Here is a recent link (from June 2019) and its just one example of thousands that show that engine tolerances do IN FACT determine the viscosity of the oil required:


Excerpts:

Font Number Circle Screenshot


And:

Font Number Document Screenshot Circle


As you can see, engine part tolerances have EVERYTHING to do with viscosity, and our Toyota 2.5L engines have very, very fine tuned computered guided milling that produces very fine tolerances, and such an engine is very well protected by 0w-16 oil.

It is my hope that this information will help bring assurances to fellow Rav4 owners, that using 0w-16 is (a) for higher MPG, (b) is ideal for small engine part clearances, and (c) will provide the best engine protection and longevity, so use year round in ALL temperatures. It is safe, so relax and for most use-cases no need for oil changes before 10,000 miles.
 

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It's really sad that others will read your posts, and think you speak the truth, but you spread disinformation. I read your link again, and it does not support what you say, and in fact, the cite at the bottom of your linked site is from the last century, WELL OVER 40 years ago! Long before the improvements for light oils such as w16, w20 and long before these were even embraced by the auto industry.

Here is a recent link (from June 2019) and its just one example of thousands that show that engine tolerances do IN FACT determine the viscosity of the oil required:


Excerpts:

View attachment 172178

And:

View attachment 172181

As you can see, engine part tolerances have EVERYTHING to do with viscosity, and our Toyota 2.5L engines have very, very fine tuned computered guided milling that produces very fine tolerances, and such an engine is very well protected by 0w-16 oil.

It is my hope that this information will help bring assurances to fellow Rav4 owners, that using 0w-16 is (a) for higher MPG, (b) is ideal for small engine part clearances, and (c) will provide the best engine protection and longevity, so use year round in ALL temperatures. It is safe, so relax and for most use-cases no need for oil changes before 10,000 miles.
Thank you for this interesting data showing the interrelationship between bearing clearances and oil weight at a variety of temperatures. As I asked in my post #81 above do you know the main and rod bearing clearances for our Dynamic Force 2.5 liter engines so I can compare it to your charts. You only say the engine has "guided milling that provides very fine tolerances." Like you, I prefer more scientific hard data over anecdotal speculation--so what are the actual numbers in inches for the 5th gen engine main and rod bearing clearences?
 

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Here is a recent link (from June 2019) and its just one example of thousands that show that engine tolerances do IN FACT determine the viscosity of the oil required:
Smaller clearances require thinner oil. That's year 1 mechanical engineering stuff. But that shows nothing about why one chooses to use thinner oil / closer metal clearances to begin with. The charts you published don't even show 0w-16 in them - so pot calling kettle?

Here is an easy one for you - when are the engine tolerances the "tightest" Typically when the engine is cold right - metal expands when hot? What is the viscosity difference Between 0w-16 and 0w-20 on the cold end? Answer - there the same. 0W is the cold viscosity.

When is most engine wear caused. Answer - cold start.

So why use thinner oil when hot - when the clearances are at their largest? To save fuel by using less energy pumping that oil around.

They have squeezed every efficiency out of engines they can - perfect stoichiometric ratios via closed loop, zero fuel waste via GDI, better use of all heat to create power, synthetic Atkinson cycle using valve overlap. The last place to gain efficiency is to lower the power required to move oil around the engine.

So Toyota (and other) engineers said "we need to use thinner oil, to reduce that 20 or so horsepower used up by the oil pump....
--Thinner oil needs different properties and additives - hence the SN spec.
--Thinner oil might need tighter clearances so it isn't squeezed out - in some parts of the engine but not all. Lubrication volume has a lot to due with that as well - its not as simple as a chart.

They designed the engine to survive on thinner oil to save fuel. They didn't use thinner oil because it was better.

Like I said, I still use 0w-16. 0w-20 would work just as well - if not better, but would likely get you 0.1 MPG less
 

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Found it - read this years ago:


JXTG Nippon Oil & Energy, makers of ENEOS oil, have been working with Japanese automakers to develop 0W-16 oils since the late 1990s. We caught up with a couple of their representatives — Hiroya Miyamoto, senior manager of OEM group, and Hiromi Takahashi, deputy general manager

....

"0W-16 showed higher fuel economy than 0W-20 engine oil. It will also give you remarkable quick engine starts at cold temperatures. There are several concerns [about 0W-16 oils] due to their lower viscosity, like increased wear, increased oil consumption and lower oil pressure. But our long history [with 0W-16] has addressed these concerns. The 0W- 16 project is just the beginning of what JXTG Nippon Oil is striving to do to offset carbon footprints. Actually, we are currently working on an 0W-8 oil. "


Read the entire article - become informed.
 

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Can you state what the main and rod bearing clearances are for the 5th gen RAV4 Dynamic Force 2.5 liter engine and then tell us the clearances on the 1st,2nd, 3d, and 4th generation Rav4 engines so that we can all see that you are correct--ie, that our Dynamic Force engines have tighter tolerances.
I do not know what the tight tolerances/clearances are for our 2.5L engine, but it know for sure that they are very small, otherwise Toyota would never prescribe 0w-16 for them. And as for prior years engines, if Toyota prescribes 0w-20 or 0w-16 for them, they too have very small tolerances.
 

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Found it - read this years ago:


JXTG Nippon Oil & Energy, makers of ENEOS oil, have been working with Japanese automakers to develop 0W-16 oils since the late 1990s. We caught up with a couple of their representatives — Hiroya Miyamoto, senior manager of OEM group, and Hiromi Takahashi, deputy general manager

....

"0W-16 showed higher fuel economy than 0W-20 engine oil. It will also give you remarkable quick engine starts at cold temperatures. There are several concerns [about 0W-16 oils] due to their lower viscosity, like increased wear, increased oil consumption and lower oil pressure. But our long history [with 0W-16] has addressed these concerns. The 0W- 16 project is just the beginning of what JXTG Nippon Oil is striving to do to offset carbon footprints. Actually, we are currently working on an 0W-8 oil. "


Read the entire article - become informed.
You argue against a strawman's claim, to save face, instead of admiting that you were mistaken.

I never said smaller tolerances came first, then light oil for improved MPG, and I never said MPG was not the #1 reason for going 0w-16.


Here is how it came down for Toyota and other carmakers:

1. Need to improve MPG across the fleet.
2. Do that with the lightest oils possible because they require less energy to circulate.
3. To use lightest oils, engines must have closer tolerances, otherwise lighter oils will significantly shorten engine life.

Toyota's Mission Accomplished:
  • MPG is greatly improved.
  • 0w-16 protects engines with closer tolerances without shortening the life of the engines.
  • For most use-cases, drivers can safely change oil every 10,000 miles WITHOUT risk to engine life.
 

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You argue against a strawman's claim, to save face, instead of admiting that you were mistaken.

I never said smaller tolerances came first, then light oil for improved MPG, and I never said MPG was not the #1 reason for going 0w-16.


Here is how it came down for Toyota and other carmakers:

1. Need to improve MPG across the fleet.
2. Do that with the lightest oils possible because they require less energy to circulate.
3. To use lightest oils, engines must have closer tolerances, otherwise lighter oils will significantly shorten engine life.

Toyota's Mission Accomplished:
  • MPG is greatly improved.
  • 0w-16 protects engines with closer tolerances without shortening the life of the engines.
  • For most use-cases, drivers can safely change oil every 10,000 miles WITHOUT risk to engine life.
My statements have never changed. Now that I went to the trouble of finding the references you wanted, your proven wrong, so you change your story.

Your last statement is completely different than what you were arguing earlier, yet matches what I have been saying - lighter oils are about better mileage.

You even told me I was spreading disinformation, and now make up some more BS about a strawman argument whatever that means. In bold?

My statements have never changed.

Keep digging though - its entertaining.



If YOU would read the engineering documents coming out of Toyota Japan, and many other makes, you will find that in the past 15+ years, they ALL have trended toward designing engines with (a) finer tolerances, and (b) the need of those engines to use thinner oils, for BEST protection.
It's about thinner tolerances, and your refusal to face facts. You also refuse to look at Used Oil Analysis, thousands of them that prove thinner oils do in fact protect today's latest engines.
As you can see, engine part tolerances have EVERYTHING to do with viscosity, and our Toyota 2.5L engines have very, very fine tuned computered guided milling that produces very fine tolerances, and such an engine is very well protected by 0w-16 oil.
It's really sad that others will read your posts, and think you speak the truth, but you spread disinformation.
 

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Gee! I thought I was the only one who gets embroiled in pissing contests on this forum.
The original post that burned my bonnet was the one below which wasn't even directed at me - where your fellow forum member blankly stated that anyone that disagreed with him was a knuckled dragging Neanderthal that can't think, read, or understand anything.

Sadly his hypothesis - either on the reason for low viscosity oil or on forum members - isn't based on fact, or even personal observations on his part. I have no idea where his ideas came from - since there essentially 0w-16 good, everything else bad. Any published information he refuses to accept.

Perhaps he is a paid Honda Troll - sent here to seed discontent amongst Toyota owners?

They conclude on their feelings, uninformed opinions, instead of deferring to scientists, engineers, UOA's (used oil analysis), and empirical statistics which prove otherwise.
 

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The original post that burned my bonnet was the one below which wasn't even directed at me - where your fellow forum member blankly stated that anyone that disagreed with him was a knuckled dragging Neanderthal that can't think, read, or understand anything.

Sadly his hypothesis - either on the reason for low viscosity oil or on forum members - isn't based on fact, or even personal observations on his part. I have no idea where his ideas came from - since there essentially 0w-16 good, everything else bad. Any published information he refuses to accept.

Perhaps he is a paid Honda Troll - sent here to seed discontent amongst Toyota owners?
You have to wear lead underpants for protection when you post on this forum. This place is mean and hard with a lot of competitive, angry posters and one-ups- man-ship. I have been a member of other car forums, especially for Jeeps. They are nothing like this place. They are friendly and helpful with no personal attacks. On this forum, if you post, you better have your own dagger sharpened and ready to counter attack. I myself have called out trolls on this forum. There was one guy who was an obvious Hyundai and Kia plant.
 

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I heard from a Toyota Technician that the RAV4 has an electric variable speed oil pump. The flow rate is calibrated for 0-16W. It may not be as readily available as other weights, but I still find it fairly easy to find. Amazon always works too.
Font Parallel Rectangle Screenshot Number

mobil1 oil is made for use in the Toyota rav4
 

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Mobil1 AFE 0W-16 is a quality oil but I prefer Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic 0W-16; it runs significantly quieter. You can get it on Amazon or at NAPA.
 

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Toyota dealer near me wants to use 0w-20 in my 2020 RAV4. The dealer! What are they thinking? Have to insist on 0w-16.
Same issues with my local Toyota dealer in Edmonton, they used 0w20 instead of 0w16 as required, that being the 2021 Rav4's Trail first oil change >> I'm so mad right now, and on top of that in their paperwork my Rav4 trail is a 2021 Tacoma. And this is the dealer I've bout it from :( :(
 

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Same issues with my local Toyota dealer in Edmonton, they used 0w20 instead of 0w16 as required, that being the 2021 Rav4's Trail first oil change >> I'm my mad now, and on top of that in their paperwork my Rav4 trail is a 2021 Tacoma. And this is the dealer I've bout it from :( :(
The Maintenance Guide is clear that the oil change interval is reduced to 5,000 miles if any oil other than 0-16 is used. Tell the dealer they are responsible for the next oil change in 5,000 miles.
 

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I don't understand why water cooling engine needs this? Cooling systems should keep engine at specific temperature regardless of ambient temperature.
Am I wrong?
The Adventure and TRD version of the ICE and all the hybrid versions I believe have engine oil coolers. All other ICE models do not. So on those other models the engine oil can theoretically get much higher than coolant temps under hard operation because the engine oil is never directly "cooled" but is left to circulate around and end up back in the oil pan, so in theory at least they could undergo thermal viscosity breakdown. The new synthetic oils (and even older quality dyno oils properly refined) take a lot of heat and a lot of time for this to happen. Its just one more reason to change you oil frequently.
 
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